The Midnight Library transcript

© Bimbo Media

00:03

Holly: This is Bimbo Book Club with Holly.

00:12

Harley: And Harley. Hello, everybody, and welcome to our first episode of 2023.

00:19

Holly: Yeah, so welcome to 2023.

00:22

Harley: We are recording this from the past, obviously. But we hope everybody had a good new year.

00:27

Holly: And Christmas. I guess we're far ahead.

00:31

Harley: We hope everybody's holiday season was spectacular. This week would you like to tell people about what book we're doing, Holly?

00:38

Holly: Yes. So, we're doing The Midnight Library by Matt Haig. A number one best-selling author, who has also written children's books, business books, like a whole eclectic collection of quite the wordsmith.

00:55

Harley: Yes. Quite the wordsmith. So, we decided to do The Midnight Library, because it focuses on, I guess, what we these days pretty casually call the multiverse. And we thought that would be kind of a nice touch for everybody still probably committing to their New Year's resolutions.

01:13

Holly: Yeah, it does kind of feel very New Years-y. It’s like fresh start-y. The whole book about fresh starts.

01:21

Harley: Well, I think it's about letting go of regrets. And I think that there's something about that end-of-year, start-of-year period that's letting go of what you didn't achieve in the previous year, and then focusing on what you want to achieve for the next year.

01:35

Holly: Yeah, letting go of all the guilt and the shame and everything that comes with not achieving those things that we set out to achieve.

01:42

Harley: Yeah, absolutely. So, what did you think of The Midnight Library?

01:45

Holly: So, I've actually read it twice now. So, the first time I read it was probably about 12 months ago, very early in 2021. I believe it was actually the free Audible book for January 2021. I think.

02:00

Harley: I'll take your word for it.

02:02

Holly: Might have been 2020. I don't remember. Anyway, I remember downloading it through Audible because it was free and listening to it. And I really liked it. But at that time, I think I was in a little bit of a different headspace. And I was very much more into like, personal development. And I was reading a lot of personal development books. I feel like I've kind of progressed through that phase. I'm still doing a lot of personal work, but maybe not in as corny of a way as this book.

02:34

Harley: I think it's also worth I mean, because I know your secondary read was when we decided to do it for the podcast, which was my first reading of it. It's probably worth also pointing out that in between that time has been when obviously Multiverse of Madness, but more importantly, Everything Everywhere All at Once came out. Obviously, it's a movie, not a book. But I do think that Everything Everywhere All at Once dealt with very similar themes, but did it in a way that honestly like, it's no insult to Matt Haig, to say this, like I think it was so spectacular that everything falls short next to it. I just cannot rave about that film enough. So, I wonder how much that secondary reading that feeling of it being a little bit patronizing or a little bit childish? I don't think all of it came from this. But I do wonder how much of that sense of its kind of not being as good as the first time you read it came from somebody's doing the same themes and the same concept, but in a significantly more spectacular way again, because I think Everything Everywhere All at Once was so spectacularly done that everything fell short.

03:39

Holly: Yeah, I think it's part of that I'm in a very different headspace. I still found it very warm and fuzzy, I still found it quite an easy and a good read. I did find it a lot cornier this time and a little bit cringe-worthy in some spots, particularly the way that the main character Nora relates to her social media, like I found that quite cringy. But I guess that's partly because as a society, we've kind of moved away from using Facebook in the way that it was described in the book, I guess. But yeah, we will definitely be discussing the story and going through some spoilers, but there's not really too… we can't spoil this book, I don't think.

04:19

Harley: No, I feel like it's fairly obvious what it is. And I mean, the outcome is obviously never going to be she decides to die, and it’s done. The end.

04:28

Holly: So, for those who haven't read the book, it's essentially Nora Seed is our main character. She is just having the worst day of life.

04:38

Harley: I would say she's suicidally depressed.

04:41

Holly: Yeah, so she's extremely depressed. And then it's just the tipping point this day she's lost her job. She's lost her cat. Cat has died.

04:48

Harley: If you still haven't figured it out by now. Trigger warning, trigger warning for the cat.

04:51

Holly: Oh, yeah. And then she just makes this decision to die. And so, she essentially commits suicide, wakes up in The Midnight Library.

05:05

Harley: So, it's a kind of limbo, a space between where she can see all the possibilities of all the lives she could have led, which is where we go back to Everything Everywhere All at Once where it's like every seed of every decision. And yes, we did pick up on the name thing. But the like, every decision that you make has limitless opportunities and kind of can spiral into multiple outcomes.

05:28

Holly: Yeah, so there's just those sliding doors moments.

05:30

Harley: It’s the what ifs. What if I'd done this? Or What if I'd done that? And she gets to experience those lives.

05:37

Holly: So, she's presented with the book of regrets, which is a book of, you guessed it, all the regrets of her life. These regrets vary from like, I regret not going to the gym on this day to I regret leaving my fiancé at the altar kind of thing.

05:51

Harley: I really liked the idea of the flickering regrets, like the things that stick it in and add regret, where it's like she hadn't quite decided how she felt on it. But like, some of the words on the pages were flickering as she read them. And that was because the regret hadn't fully set in yet.

06:07

Holly: I really liked that. One of those regrets that flickered in and out was I regret having children or not having children. Yeah, she hadn't decided if she really wanted to have children or not.

06:19

Harley: Yeah, so there was a part of her that was like, I don't regret this at all. And then there was a part of her that was like, I'm sad for not having taken this opportunity to have children. Yeah. And so that kind of flickering in and out. And I thought that was like it was a good visual. But it also was a good moment in the book.

06:33

Holly: Yeah. So, she works her way through all these different books that are in the library. So, each book in the library relates to a regret from the book of regrets, she's able to undo these regrets…

06:46

Harley: Not necessarily to undo the regrets but to experience the life without that regret where she made the other choice. So, for example, very early on she in her life, she quit swimming. So, she was like a champion swimmer, ready to go to the Olympics, or that kind of on track to go to the Olympics, all that kind of stuff. And she ended up quitting it for a variety of reasons. And so, one of her regrets was not having followed that path through to its end. So, one of the lives is the life where she doesn't have that regret, because she made the choice to stick with swimming. So, it's both that choice and regret thing.

07:18

Holly: Yeah. So, she's kind of just dropped into these lives. So, there are some funny moments where she has to, like figure out this life and kind of improvise for a period of time. So, there's a few funny moments. And then ultimately, at the end of the novel, she's experienced a bunch of different lives. And she makes the conscious decision to go back to her life, which was obviously always the point.

07:39

Harley: And I did find out a little bit. So, there's a point where, just to backtrack a little bit. So, the library essentially is like a limbo space and is projected based on the person who is in it. So, she sees a library with her high school librarian in it. So yes, what's her name?

07:56

Holly: Mrs. Elm.

07:57

Harley: Mrs. Elm was her high school librarian who we kind of made at the start of the book. Yeah, but so when we reference Mrs. Elm, in The Midnight Library, that's who that is. But there's a point where Mrs. Elm says to her, I think quite early on is the like, when you find the life, you're meant to lead, you won't end up back in the library. And so, she's leaving some really good lives but then ending up back in the library and she's like I don’t understand, what's going on? And that's one of those moments where I think the story is quite on the nose because you're like clearly you were meant to realize that the life, you're meant to live is the one you were originally in.

08:28

Holly: Yeah, so as soon as you feel a sense of disappointment with the book life that you're living then you return to the library. And it’s always midnight in the library and all the new lives start from midnight. So, essentially the time that she died in her original life, well I guess the time she has made the decision to die because she wakes up and doesn't die.

08:51

Harley: Yeah, so I guess in that like near miss so that almost death, again state of limbo, the state of in between.

08:58

Holly: Which I really liked the first time I read this book. I really love that concept. I loved how it played out I loved the way he written it the way he described it. I thought was wonderful. Actually, didn't realize this was written by a man until I'd read it a second time. Yeah, could be because the audio is narrated by a woman as a female main character. But it took me until the second reading to be like, Oh, okay. Yeah, I really liked that, and I think upon the second reading, comparing it to Everything Everywhere All at Once, it doesn't hit the same because that was done so well.

09:33

Harley: I think to this one does have a little bit of I think I described it to you the other day as a bit of a Go Ask Alice quality where as much as it's I mean, to be fair, Go Ask Alice was presented as nonfiction when it was in fact fiction. When it was originally published. I'm not sure how they do it now. But it's a fictional story, told in a way that's clearly supposed to be educational. While being like No, no, I'm not trying to be lecture-y, but there's still just a hint of that.

10:00

Holly: It definitely feels like there are specific quotes in this book that Matt Haig has written to be pulled out of the book and used as like inspirational quotes. So, one of the lives, Nora delivers a TED talk. And the whole talk is meant to be improvised, but it feels very, like he wanted to do a TED talk. And so, he's written it into his book so that he could do a TED talk on depression. And yeah, it did feel a little on the nose. Some of it, I still really enjoyed it, I still felt very warm and fuzzy at the end of it.

10:33

Harley: But I feel like it's one of those ones that to me, I think that people who are actually in that state of depression, and especially that suicidal depression, either will read it and be like, Oh, my God, it's so profound. Or they'll read it and be like, You condescending fuck. And there's no in between. Like they will 100% fall on either side of that fence.

10:51

Holly: Absolutely. And I think that's reflected in a lot of the reviews as well.

10:55

Harley: And like, I certainly think the intention was good. And I do think that the execution was good. And I think that that's maybe something with, again, Everything Everywhere All at Once is that that felt profound, because it wasn't trying to lecture, and it had those truly ridiculous moments. Like I remember the first time I saw that movie, where you've got the, like, even before you see the end result but the like the butt plug trophies, and the like, all that kind of thing, where there's that level of ridiculousness.

11:21

Holly: The fucking googly eyes on everything.

11:23

Harley: It's like, it's so ridiculous. And the fact that the butt plug trophy actually is a smoking gun. But there's this level of just such absurdity that helps to ground something that otherwise would be a little bit like of oh for fuck’s sake. It's like it's so profound that you need to balance it out with something that's so ridiculous. And I feel like this does feel a little bit more like somebody's giving a like you’ll be right! That I know. I mean, I've been lucky enough to not ever experience that level of depression. But especially if you look at members of my family who have that, I definitely take after, I 100% would fall into the Can you not condescend to me right now? camp. And I'm not in that headspace where I was able to read it without that kind of thing. But I do think that there was a bit of an air of being lectured to. But if you took that out, it's a really lovely story.

12:12

Holly: Yeah. So, in the novel, we’re introduced to Hugo, who is another person who is in the same situation as Nora. So, I think they call it sliders. Yeah, I think they call themselves sliders because they're sliding between the lives.

12:26

Harley: Yeah, I think Hugo calls them sliders. And she just absorbs that.

12:29

Holly: Yeah, and it works. So, he is not in a library. He is in a video store.

12:34

Harley: So, this is where before I mentioned that it's a limbo space that is projected upon like by the person who is in that space. So, he obviously doesn't have the same connection with books that Nora does. So, he sees a video store instead of a library. And obviously, he doesn't see her high school librarian.

12:56

Holly: He's got his video, clerk. Is it video store? Video game store? Video store. So, if you were in it, you’d get a library?

13:06

Harley: I’d get a library for sure. It's actually got some, I don't know if this is on purpose. But do you know much about the Akashic records? So, it's like a spiritual concept that it's a record of everything that has been is or ever will be. And originally, it was kind of conceived obviously, as like a library kind of concept. Because like, I've seen modern paganism, talk about it as a, like a computer where you can Google anything ever. But obviously, the very original versions of that were kind of a library or book or whatever. And there are some notes of that, where, obviously, each library or video store or whatever is specific to the person. But the idea is that there is infinite possibility. And so, there are some notes of like, I did notice a little bit of that kind of thing that I was like, Oh, that's interesting. Like, I don't know if that's on purpose, but it is an interesting kind of parallel, I guess.

13:55

Holly: Yeah. So, while it feels like a very sort of novel idea, it's obviously not.

14:00

Harley: And even though, they talk a little bit about the quantum physics, quantum physics kind of accepts a multiverse at this point, which is deeply fascinating, and a whole, like, thing we could go down. But I think he's also why it's now starting to appear in more and more stories is because it is becoming certainly—it's on the edges of science, but it is becoming more and more apparent that it appears to be the reality of the existence that we're in. But there's the quantum physics thing, but the way that that spirals out also is really interesting, because the idea of a tree motif is repeated in a lot of religions. So obviously, in Norse religion, there's the World Tree that like each of the worlds is upon. And you've got the norn at the bottom of the tree, tending to it and all that kind of stuff. But even in the is it the remember the name of so in, like, I want to say Judaism, there's all the names of God and the way that they're presented. It doesn't actually look like a tree to me, but it's supposed to represent a tree. There's the tree of life, even if you look at human design charts, they mimic that same kind of pattern. And so, it's really interesting that from a spiritual thing, and I mean, human design is quite modern. But then if you look at something like Norse religion, it's decidedly not modern. That idea of things branching out into infinity has obviously been a concept forever. So, it seems to be kind of some sort of fundamental human understanding that we're circling back around to with science. Yeah, that there's no end, and I think that's really interesting. But instead of kind of really focusing on that Nora is a philosopher, so a lot of the quantum physics stuff. She's like, Oh, that's interesting. Anyway, the philosopher so and so I always thought this about life. And to be fair, she is somebody who studied philosophy, so it makes sense for her character. But that does again, also feel like Matt Haig has got a background in. I was about to say psychology, I think he does.

15:51

Holly: I think he's written some like, self-help books as well.

15:59

Harley: But I meant philosophy. As you probably gathered. Yeah, there's a little bit of that I'm just nitpicking. I'm just picking some profound philosophical quotes around just showing off my philosophy knowledge.

16:08

Holly: There's only a few philosophers that are mentioned. And they are mentioned several times, so it doesn't feel like a well-rounded knowledge of philosophy, but like a nitpicked.

16:16

Harley: And it kind of works because I kind of get the vibe from Nora that she is that person who's like, as the philosopher so and so said, but by the same token is like this, I think, because you can kind of see what the author is trying to do with it the work, it reads a little bit as him being like that. And I don't know if that's accurate or not, but it feels like that, if that makes sense.

16:36

Holly: Yeah, it's like, okay, so is it, Matt? Or is it Nora that has an Instagram full of sunsets with philosophy quotes under them?

16:42

Harley: Right. And I think that's the hard thing about this book is I feel like you can still see the mechanics. And I think that that's something that particularly because the mechanics are, like, I mean, he's trying to make a point. And you can see him trying to make that point instead of him just making that point.

17:00

Holly: Yeah, it feels like it was almost written with the goal to have year twelves in English, analyze it.

17:07

Harley: Or to like bulk sell it to psych wards. I feel like that was probably my biggest issue with it is I feel, like I said, you can see the kind of mechanics of it. And I think that most books, even bad books, you usually can't see the mechanics of what they're doing so clearly, so you often see elements of mechanics, so something that we have both read, but there isn't an episode on, but Faerie Tales, you can see the mechanics of how he's writing in terms of the, like, you get notes of Stephen King kind of early on, or there's moments.

17:43

Holly: To clarify, we're talking about the Raymond E. Feist version of Faerie Tales not the Stephen King version of Fairy Tales, which has just been released.

17:51

Harley: Yeah. I didn't know that Stephen King had released it, but he's just yeah, like, Thanks for making that sentence more confusing. Mr. King. Actually, I was reading a thing on I will circle back to this. But I was already a thing on like, book Reddit. That was like, You guys do realize that if multiverses are real there is another version of this universe where Tabitha King didn't pull Carrie out of the wastepaper basket and go, where's the rest of it? I want to finish it. Because he threw it out. Yeah, this isn't working for me. There is a universe out there, where there's a bunch of students who have like this old jaded English teacher called Mr. King who like secretly wanted to be a novelist, but never lived his dream and just had an ordinary, probably fairly shitty, because teachers in America aren’t treated well life, in Bangor, and that's it. That's the whole story. And we just happen to live in a universe where she did pull carry out of the wastepaper basket and did go, Where's the rest of it? And forced him to finish it.

18:50

Harley: There's a universe out there was a universe out there where he did not take one look at Tabitha and go, Love of my life, lock that down. Because I mean, even he is like, I couldn't have done it without her.

19:02

Holly: There's probably a universe out there where he is just a straight-up serial killer instead of writing about these things.

19:09

Harley: Probably, anyway, the Raymond E. Feist version is an early work for him. So, you can see some of the mechanics, but I would say once the story gets going, the story is just it's on a roll kind of thing. So, yes, obviously, he's picked apart every sentence with an editor because that's the nature of writing. But when you're reading it, once he kind of gets to his point, you can feel that he's just telling a story. And it is a good story. And I'm pretty sure that's kind of the takeaway that I certainly had. I'm speaking for you, but I think you had as well where it was like, there were nitpicky bits about it. But once he got on a roll was like, you know what, all things considered, it was a good story. Whereas with this, I feel like it was on a roll from fairly early on, but from beginning to the end, you could see the mechanics of what he was trying to do. Yeah, and I think that storytelling is one of those things where you want to be good enough at it, that it looks easy. So, it's like, you know, watching a gymnast or a dancer or things like that, where they're performing in that way where you're like, Wow, I could do that. Like, it looks so easy. It looks so straightforward or like whatever they're doing, it's like, wow, I could totally do that. And then you try your luck. That is so hard. You made it look not only easy but graceful. So hard that I can't even do it in a non-graceful way. What the hell? And writing has a little bit of that quality to it. And I think you can see him kind of remembering the steps of the dance.

20:36

Holly: Yeah, it’s almost like he had an outcome in mind. And the outcome wasn't the story. As such, it was how do I create this outcome and build a story around it?

20:47

Harley: Yeah, how do I tell a  feel-good story for depressed people, rather than I have this great idea. And I think it's a lovely story. And yeah, like I said, I don't think that it's necessarily bad. And I think if you are the right kind of person, in a sad state, I think that it is a book that will feel really profound and probably be very helpful for you. I just think that it often will also be given to people who it will have the opposite effect where it's like, you don't know me, I'm gonna go do what I was going to do anyway, you asshole.

21:16

Holly: And I think for people who aren't necessarily depressed, it's easy is just a cute little cozy feel-good story. It's got a romance. A couple of romances, actually. And it's got highs, it's got lows.

21:33

Harley: And I don’t think it’s a bad thing to ask those questions about like, What do I regret or what would have happened in other lifetimes? Or the takeaway that Nora gets for a lot of things is that she matters more than she thinks she does, even in her original life. And I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. Because she does start off the book in that space of like, Nobody would miss me when I'm gone, or I've failed everybody or things like that. And she discovers where she hasn't. So, she thinks she's failed her brother by not being in his band, because she left the band right before they're about to get a record deal. And she lives that life, and he's died of a drug overdose, because being famous has exacerbated the problems he already had, by giving him such access to sex, drugs, and rock and roll that he rock and rolls right off the cliff edge, so to speak, which is fairly common for people who have blown up in that kind of way. So, it's not an unreasonable outcome. But she's felt like she's failed her brother. And then she gets the outcome where she hasn't failed her brother. And actually, yeah, better off in the universe where she did quit the band. But also, there's the kid that she teaches piano. So, when she's in her perfect life, she's got the surgeon, husband, and they've got a beautiful daughter, and everything's lovely. And she's like, you know, a professor at the University she loves, and they've got a nice house in London and everything.

22:54

Holly: She’s writing her philosophy book on her favorite philosopher.

22:57

Harley: Everything's amazing. She goes back to her hometown and runs into this kid. And he's continued down a path of petty crime and being a not-good kid that was stopped because he had a piano teacher - her. So, because he found a passion to redirect his focus. He didn't go down that path. And again, it is that on the nose stuff, but it is that kind of thing that I mean, a lot of people say when they jump off bridges and things like that, they realized on the way down that they're like, the people who survived obviously.

23:29

Holly: Sorry, didn't realize you're a psychic. And you could commune with the dead. But yes.

23:36

Harley: The people who survived jumping off things often say that on the way down, they realized there was no problem in their life that couldn't be solved, except for the fact that they just jumped off the side of a bridge or a building or whatever. And so, I think it is that moment of kind of realizing that you matter more than you think you do. And I don't think that's a bad message to have, which is why I'm like, listen it’s a little bit on the nose, how he's doing, but I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing that he's doing it. And indeed, the nice message.

24:04

Holly: Yeah, there's definitely a very specific demographic for this book. And it's probably just not us. Or it was the Holly of 12 or 24 months ago or whatever. But it's not me now.

24:13

Harley: I don't even think it's necessarily not us, because I did enjoy it. I'm just very conscious of and maybe this is because I've worked in kind of arenas where they'll do like one prescription for everybody thing. I can see a lot of halfway houses and mental health facilities or things like that getting everybody to read it and being like, see, it's so profound, and for the people who feel condescended to by that kind of thing, having them actually make that feeling worse.

24:37

Holly: Yeah, it just kind of feels disingenuous there.

24:42

Harley: And I think that it's not Matt Haig’s fault, and he's certainly not asked for it to be given to everybody ever, as far as I'm aware. But I think there is that risk there with these kinds of books. And also, with calling these kinds of books profound, when it's not. And I think maybe that's one of the things that I liked about Everything Everywhere All At Once is that it wasn't some, like, amazing discovery that she was so great or things like that. It was just a like, in all the universes, and all the things that I have achieved and all that kind of stuff, like I love my family.

25:16

Holly: And you may find our way back to each other always.

25:19

Harley: And happiness in the end isn't about the big opportunities that we've missed, or all the possibilities that are out there, or any of that kind of stuff. It's about the simple things. So, the happiest character in that movie is her husband, who's just trying to run a laundromat and love his wife and raise a good daughter and he's unhappy because he can feel that he's failing her by not being everything all at once. Yeah, but I think the thing that makes that feel profound is that it doesn't have that. See, it's all good in the end.

25:52

Holly: Yeah, because it's not all good in the end, it’s better, but it's not all good.

25:56

Harley: The same between the mother and daughter right at the end of that is that like, it is fucked up. But I love you. Yeah, like, everything is fucked. And it is shitty. And I'm probably going to screw up again. And I get it. Nothing that is, but if nothing matters, everything matters, and you matter, I just think it didn't have that note to it to me. Whereas, like I said, giving it to the right people I think would be a really lovely thing. And I think it is a lovely story. So, it could be, it could feel very profound. So anyway, I don't know. I feel like it sounds like I'm being really hard on him. I think in the same way that Go Ask Alice was kind of a staple read kind of thing. And I think backfired in terms of it was like, drugs are all bad. And as soon as you have one drug, you're gonna go off the deep end, and you'll be an addict forever, never recover. I know a lot of people in response to that kind of Reefer Madness approach, you know, back in the day tried something and went, Oh, I didn't die from one line of blow. Yeah, so all of this is bullshit. So instead of taking this stuff that is true about the dangers of drug use, which is like, there is the risk of addiction, and there is the risk of things being cut with something else, and all the kind of the damage that you can do to your body and all that kind of stuff. All those things are valid, but because they were told in that way of Reefer Madness and Go Ask Alice, people who felt condescended to by that kind of stuff went, Fuck you. And probably some of them went harder than they would have otherwise. And I think it's got that same kind of risk, I guess, which wouldn't be such an issue if it was just a feel-good story. But instead of just being a feel-good story, it's very obvious that he has a message about being suicidal, or recovering from being suicidal, I guess, to be more accurate.

27:45

Holly: So, is there a particular life that you liked, which was your favorite life of all the lives that Nora Seed lived? Which one was your favorite?

27:54

Harley: I think and possibly just because we spent the most time in it, I think the perfect life, because it was like having everything can be perfect on paper, and it doesn't always feel good.

28:08

Holly: Yeah, if you're right or so obviously, Nora has not dropped into all of these lives. And she has very little or no knowledge of how she's got there and what she's doing that life. And I quite liked the way, so Molly is the daughter in that life. So, there are some lives where she's got children most lives, she doesn't have children, but the lives where she does have children, she's not in them for very long. So, this is the longest time she spends with a child. And very quickly, she’s dropped into this world. It's the middle of the night, they're in bed, she wakes up. And there's a tiny human there being like, I'm scared. But yeah, so she asks Molly to play game with her. And this game is just answer these questions and it says silly things like, What's daddy's name? What's my name?

28:56

Harley: What's does daddy do for a living?

28:58

Holly: What does mummy do? And I felt like that was a clever way of giving us that backstory. Rather than the usual I'm gonna Google myself.

29:08

Harley: She's like, Oh, I can just google myself in every life, which I feel is a bit, The fuck you can.

29:13

Holly: So, in some lives, like the rockstar life or the life where she goes to the Olympics, yes.

29:18

Harley: But she Googles herself in like, boring lives, too.

29:22

Holly: Yeah, it was she and she searches for social media.

29:25

Harley: It was a cute way of doing it. Because like her daughter was like, What are you doing? And she's like, I'm just trying to get you to calm down. Like you’ve had a bad dream. And we're just talking just like general facts. I know the answers to these questions, but I'm just trying to get you to focus. And I kind of like it too, because that's actually so one of the things that they've studied about people having panic attacks or being in a fear state or things like that is essentially that your executive function brain and your like lizard brain can't operate at the same time. So, one of the best ways to stop a panic attack. That's why they've got the, name one thing you can smell, name two things you can hear, name three things you can see, go through all the senses is because essentially it forces function back into the executive brain, which slows a panic attack in its tracks because panic attack does not exist in the executive brain, it’s all central nervous system. So just kind of forcing focus back into the part of the brain that will allow that panic attack to subside. So, it's like it's a valid technique for calming someone down. But it's also her being like, What life am I in? What’s the dog's name again?

30:28

Holly: And there was this moment and I thought it was almost going to be like a full circle moment kind of thing, but it didn't happen. So, Molly, the daughter has had a nightmare because Ash, the husband had shown her a video about bears. And then in another life, Nora is working, I thought it was gonna be the bloody like polar bear. Right? There's another life Nora is working. Is it Antarctica?

30:54

Harley: No, it's north. Arctic North.

30:57

Holly: Yes, something like that. Arctic North, they are an expedition for some reason that I'm she's a spotter. And she's a spotter. So, she's gonna look out for these bears. And she has this altercation with the fucking polar bear, where she’s banging on a pot and yelling and screaming.

31:12

Harley: Her life flashes before her eyes, which is pretty funny, given that she's already dead and living in an alternate reality.

31:19

Holly: Well, I think this near-death experience in a life was kind of putting that into perspective. And that's kind of the first time that she was like, No, I actually think I want to leave, I definitely don't have to be eaten by a polar bear.

31:29

Harley: I think that's probably one of the things that I found a little bit frustrating about it, is that every life that we were in had to be profound. And I actually kind of liked the actually the life that she had with is it Dan, her ex-husband that she left at the altar?

31:45

Holly: Her ex-fiancé. One where they the country pub?

31:49

Harley: So, what I liked about that is that it was just a continuation of the person he already was. So, it was like in beating myself up about leaving, about not marrying him, I have romanticized our relationship instead of being honest about who he was. And the fact that we were never going to work because all of these character flaws that have come out now that we're older and married, and he's not performing as much, and we're drunker and all that stuff, these character flaws were always there. And the only kind of real profound takeaway from that, is that she kind of moved on with is that in the lives where she has left him, he's always like, I can never live without you. And in that life, she's like, well, when you got me, you cheated on me. So clearly, some of it is that performative acts aspect for you. But it was like, it wasn't this big, profound realization, it was just a like, I knew who you were. And it's kind of on me that I have been overlooking who you were because you gave me all this. Like, it's like that people show you who they are. I was like, you were showing me who you were. And I've made up a different version of you in my head to be kind, but it's actually unkind to both of us. But yeah, it was like every life had to be this, like deep, profound realization. And I think a lot of deep, profound realizations are surprisingly mundane.

33:05

Holly: I think that's why I liked Hugo so much. So, the other slider, because he had been doing it for a lot longer than Nora, and kind of just was like, have fun with it. Like just try a life. I think he had said that the longest he'd been in a life was four or five days or something. But I think I’d find that exhausting. I don't know that I could live a new life every couple of days.

33:32

Harley: I don't think I could do it every few days. But I feel like I could drop in for like a couple months and then drop out again.

33:37

Holly: But some of these lives. She's in them for like, an hour. Some of them she's in them for minutes. And it's sure I think that would be so exhausting, emotionally, and mentally draining to be like, cool. Where am I? What am I doing? When she arrived in Australia, wasn't she in a pool? She's dropped into a pool like, I'm swimming. Okay, great. But don't drown. Although, speaking of the Australia life, I did like how her body changed in each life. And yeah, there was one life where she was like, I'm just gonna say how many pushups I can do? Oh my God, I can do this. Her Olympian life, you know, I'm actually really strong in this life and how she liked the way that that felt.

34:24

Harley: And I think that it was like there were also lives where she like she'd aged in different ways. And so, it wasn't just that in some life, she was fitter than in others. It was the different kinds of fitness.

34:37

Holly: And in the perfect life, the C-section scar.

34:41

Harley: But also the way she'd aged into a body that was used to wearing dresses when she was with Dan and they're like, you know that like perfect pub owner's wife and with maybe a little bit of that we drink too much bit around the middle but actually still quite strong and yeah, like I think that they were really lovely touches like that, that if you just took out some of that obvious pontificating, it could have been more, like I said, I think I just like I couldn't not see the mechanics of what he was trying to do. And that took away from the story for me because the story is not a bad story. And I think we all have those moments of wonder and possibility and the like, what if I absolutely, I mean, I always feel like I'd be really paranoid that like, I wouldn't get Peanut or something if I went too far into an alternate life.

35:26

Holly: Well, that said, like she one of the first lives that she lived was she wished for a life where Voltaire the cat hadn't.

35:37

Harley: I think she's still alive or something along she hadn't let him out that night.

35:39

Holly: She hadn't let him out that night.

35:41

Harley: Right at the start of the book before she committed suicide, Ash who is the surgeon and her husband in her perfect life, but in her regular life is someone that she knows he's asked her out, she said no to the coffee date, but he's a nice guy. He finds her cat on the street. And he knocks on her door and helps her bury the cat and all that kind of stuff. And they just assume that Volts has been hit by a car. And what she discovers when she says, I want to live where I didn't let Volts out, is that it actually was a heart condition.

36:10

Holly: Yeah. And he was gonna die that time anyway, so she like it wasn't a fault of her as an owner.

36:13

Harley: Yeah. In fact, the best years of his life was spent with her because he was a rescue with a bad heart.

36:20

Holly: Yeah, that's almost more traumatic finding this cold cat under your bed.

36:26

Harley: Especially because she wakes up in the life where he's already dead. Like, she doesn't get a little bit of time with him or anything. It’s just enjoy your life with your frozen dead cat.

36:35

Holly: Yeah, because like we said, before these lives start from midnight. He was already dead by then. His expiration date was before that.

36:44

Harley: Rough, very rough. Do you have any big what if moments in your life?

36:47

Holly: Many.

36:48

Harley: Any that you feel comfortable sharing with the internet?

36:51

Holly: No.

36:56

Harley: That's what I thought. I don't necessarily think all are bad like, I had a really nice conversation with my mum a little while ago, where, because we were talking about how being diagnosed with ADHD, but then also, medicating has made a really big difference for me. And she was kind of like, I feel bad. Because I know even if I had known about ADHD, or about the fact that you have and the way that it expresses itself in you, and all that kind of stuff, my mum is difficult to get to take Panadol level of medication adverse, so she never would have medicated me as a kid. Yeah, I had to go to her kind of like, you were a dedicated enough parent that in deciding not to medicate me, you would have gone because I'm making this decision, I have to give you every other tool I can possibly give you, in order to justify the fact that I'm choosing not to do this. So, I would have had a lot of behavior modification stuff that probably would have made my approach to life and my way of achieving things very, very different that mean that I might not be reliant on medication. Now, in order to reteach my brain, how to do those things in a way that actually works for my brain. And I think that there's some elements of I don't want to off myself to try it. You know, there's elements of the like, it would be nice to experience those lives and then come back to this one, because I'm pretty happy all things considered with the life I got.

38:17

Holly: But you may never have gone down your career paths. Because of that, you know, that dopamine hits or the career path that you chose, which means we may never have met.

38:25

Harley: And I got Peanut while I was in this industry. That's how I paid for him. He got meningitis when he was a puppy. Every single time I pay the vet bill be like, Thank God I'm a stripper, thank God I’m a stripper. Because I'd be going into work every night being like I just spent $1,500 on my dog again, got to go in that back. I'm still burning through my savings, because its good luck making that seven nights a week at the club, but I could go in and be like, I'm really stressed about my dog. And I had enough regulars by that stage that they will like, you know, I had people who normally would never get lap dances or things like that be like, I don't want a lap dance, but here's 20 bucks. That helped for so even if I got Peanut, would I necessarily have been able to go through the medical care that he needed for that process? And so like, I wouldn't change my life, but I do understand that like, it would be nice to be able to just like dip into a library, try some shit and be like, Okay, now I'll go back to my regular, I guess want to say, yeah, how does that outcome affect things? How does that make stuff different? And I suppose it's that, from that going into that self-help psychology side of things, those kinds of stories that are programmed into us from a very young age or from life experiences or things like that. It's like, what's the life where I don't have that story built in? So you know, what is the life where instead of having a mum be like, who's like, Why the hell can't you just clean your room, clean your shit up, which is a reasonable request, having a mum who's like Okay, so we need to make it like a challenge or a play thing or I need to just put like Mario Kart music on in the background to help your brain focus.

39:55

Holly: Mario Kart music.

39:59

Harley: Yes, sdo, because of the light levels of trauma, “Rainbow Road” is particularly effective for getting me in an anxious enough to get shit done, but not so anxious that I can't function state. Watch Holly quietly plays “Rainbow Road” soundtracks in the background, it's not good admin music, but it's good like cleaning music. Zelda background music is good admin music.

40:23

Holly: Okay, so let me just write this down.

40:26

Harley: But it is that like having all of that energy that I put into learning how to hack my brain and that I've put into kind of reframing those stories, because I do have a lot of stories about like, I'm just lazy, or I just can't do that kind of stuff. I just don't finish things or I'm flaky or whatever. Being able to experience lives where those stories don't exist. And it's like, again, like I said, not anybody's fault. Like I was a kid in the ’90s. If you weren't Bart Simpson you, like ADHD wasn't a thing. It just wasn't for a kid in the ’90s. And not Bart Simpson, because I got the other kind of, I got the inattentive kind. But yeah, like when you look at all of that kind of stuff, and there was there no kind of possibility of that being discovered. So, it's no fault of my mum's, but the alternate reality where that information was available and accessible to her and she had that information, she would have done all that brain-hacking stuff before I had a chance to develop these stories. So yeah, like I said, it's not anybody's fault. But the reality is that I have those kind of internal click-whirr stories that play. And I think being able to jump into your alternate lives and just feel how it feels to not have that story.

41:32

Holly: But wouldn't you still have some of that story? Some of that story is going to travel with you into this new life, to see the product of the life where you didn't have that story, but you'd still internalize a lot of it.

41:42

Harley: But also, she like I think in the same way she feels physiologically different. I think our bodies are connected our emotional body, our like spiritual body, our physiological body and all that kind of stuff. I very much believe that they're connected. So, I think that you would feel that disconnect. So, you would the stories that you and I, it's maybe a little bit unfair, because I'm using stories that I have pulled apart because of the ADHD diagnosis. But we all have stories that we're unconscious of. So, imagine stepping into different lines going like what if and going Okay, so it's not just the I'm flaky story. There's also this other story that I haven't picked up on, and now I'm aware of it.

42:21

Holly: So, it's like waking up one morning and being like, Oh, my back feels good. I didn't realize it was sore. Yeah, I get it.

42:29

Harley: Yeah, I think that yeah, that experience of living different lives is more interesting to me than like quitting this one and having another one because I think and especially in kind of doing this podcast and all that kind of stuff. That whole trust the dots will connect thing is like, I can see the dots connecting now. Maybe not for everything because there’s certainly plenty of stuff I haven't figured out.

42:53

Holly: Well you drew that dot on the ceiling so it's gonna take a little bit time for us to connect that dot. She literally just looked over the ceiling. It’s a metaphorical dot.

42:57

Harley: Well, you were pointing at it. So, I was like, Have I erased a memory?

43:06

Holly: You did not actually draw a dot on my ceiling.

43:08

Harley: Thank God because I would just like, I'm sorry, because I've not said sorry about that.

43:13

Holly: Metaphorical dot.

43:16

Harley: But I think in terms of like, like, and I'm just gonna keep using this podcast as an example. How often have both of us really gone, Oh God, I don't know how to do this. And you're like, Oh, I do. I've done it for something before I had to learn it for something at work. Or you’re like, But I don't know how to do this. We're gonna have to find someone who knows that. And I'm like, I know. That's me. It's me. I did a thing once. And so now I know this thing. Yeah, really, I have that skill. And about things that are really random for both of us, where it really is kind of moments where there's some stuff that makes perfect sense. Like it makes good sense that we're both good copywriters, and that we can pull that stuff out. It makes good sense that you are pretty across how to set up the business partnership and all that stuff, given that you have done like you've had businesses with other people, you've got an accountant in the family, all that kind of, so you've got the people to ask those questions to. So, there's some of that stuff where it's like, Oh, yeah, it makes sense that you'd know that. But both of us have had moments where we're like, How the hell do you know this? Like, How the hell do you have the answer to this question?

44:13

Holly: I mean, it's not podcast-related. But the other day when you were like, I just got this ring. I don't know if I made a mistake, or if they made a mistake, but a little bit too big. And I was like, I can fix that. I can resize it. I can resize the ring. Yeah, I get my blowtorch out. I can fix that. That's a bizarre skill that.

44:31

Harley: Yeah. And I think that we've had a lot of that like, one of the reasons why making this has largely been in a real kind of relaxed state, across the board, mostly. Aside from that one launch week, where we both decided to travel. You know, it's a great time to launch a podcast when neither of us is home to do all the podcast stuff.

44:54

Holly: Pro tip: don't launch anything while you're traveling to different time zones. Not together.

45:01

Harley: Yeah, choices were made. Choices were regretted, Harley had no sleep for four days and then slept for a week. It's fine. I'm fine. I was already crazy to begin with. So, I'm not worse. But yeah, I think that there's a lot of that stuff that I think you and I would both say, up until now is like, Why the fuck do I even have this skill? Like, what does this even serve, what purpose can this possibly ever serve in my life? And now he's that like, random thing that we're like…

45:31

Holly: That hyper fixation that I had in 2016. Oh, my God, it's paying off.

45:35

Harley: Listen, I don't want to explain how I know this. But I am gonna go and get my blowtorch. So yeah, I think that all of those like, I guess missed opportunities or things that didn't make sense, and all that kind of stuff. I see how they kind of come together, and how they start to make sense. So, I liked the idea of the midnight library as a personal development tool, but not necessarily a I hate my life tool if that makes sense.

46:00

Holly: Yeah, that makes sense.

46:03

Harley: Well, do you have any other thoughts on The Midnight Library?

46:06

Holly: No.

46:07

Harley: Yeah, I don't know that there's much else to say. I do think that it, like it's a nice read. But there is obviously an agenda there. And it's not as subtle as he thinks it is.

46:19

Holly: And it's just whether you don't care about that agenda, or whether you're offended by it.

46:23

Harley: And, like I said, I don't think it's necessarily inherently bad. I think it's just knowing if you're not the target audience for that, like, I would not recommend this book to my mum.

46:33

Holly: I would recommend this to my mum.

46:36

Harley: And I think it's fairly clear that our mums are pretty different, which is cool. If everybody was the same the world would be boring. So yeah, I think it is a book that your mum can enjoy and have a wonderful time with, and my mum is like, What the hell is this condescending garbage? Never do this again. I will hit you with this book.

46:54

Holly: Well, it's not a huge book, so probably not that painful.

46:59

Harley: To be fair, she wouldn't actually hit me with it. She just tried to hit me with it. Or if she did hit me with it, she'd be like Fuck sorry, I misjudged the distance there. My bad. I was trying to do it like a melodramatic thing. That's where I get it from. Yeah, so, I think it's not a book for everyone.

47:18

Holly: No, it's definitely not a book for everyone. So dear listeners, cozy and cute or just cringe worthy? What did you think if you've read it?

47:27

Harley: And we'd love to hear your New Year's resolutions.

47:30

Holly: Or should we have New Year's resolutions to share them or?

47:34

Harley: Mine is to make a living off this so I never have to work.

47:37

Holly: Oh, that's a good one. That's also mine.

47:42

Harley: My one and only resolution. Yeah, I feel like I'm pretty good across what I eat pretty well. I'm pretty like I'm pretty fit. That said, if I stopped performing, I probably have to work a bit harder, like actually getting exercise. But yeah, I'm like, make more money really is the only thing. Like I said, I'm pretty fit. I'm pretty happy and pretty healthy. So, my only resolution is to build our bimbo empire.

48:07

Holly: Yep, build our bimbo empire. May we do it with ease and be happy while we do it.

48:13

Harley: Thank you so much for listening to this week's episode. Once again, we hope that you had a wonderful holiday season, and we hope that you are in fact still enjoying a bit of a break before you have to return to real life because you’ve gotta enjoy it while you can. As always, links, transcripts all the things are available on our website and in the show notes.

48:36

Holly: Bimbos out.

48:37

Harley: Bimbos out.