Daughter of Smoke and Bone transcript

© Bimbo Media

00:00

Holly: This is Bimbo Book Club with Holly.

00:12

Harley: And Harley. Okay, so this week we are doing Daughter of Smoke and Bone by Laini Taylor. Cool. I got her first name wrong before, so I was concerned.

00:27

Holly: You got it this time. I hope.

00:30

Harley: Yeah, questionable. So, this is one I recommended.

00:32

Holly: You did recommend it to me.

00:36

Harley: And it is proof that I don't just try and torture you all the time.

00:39

Holly: Yes, I did enjoy it. I still maintain the fact that you do like to torture me.

00:45

Harley: I didn’t say I don't enjoy torturing you, I said ‘all the time.’

00:46

Holly: Okay, all the time.

00:48

Harley: Okay. Sometimes I’m nice.

00:50

Holly: Yeah. But I feel like when I recommend books to you, I torture you in a different way. Like I torture you emotionally and break your heart a little bit.

00:57

Harley: I feel like this book has heartbreaking moments in it.

01:02

Holly: I don't think it really penetrated as deep as, like, The Invisible Life of Addie LaRue. For example, I feel like that hit me very much in the feels, whereas this is kind of like, oh, yeah, it's heartbreaking, but it's only surface-level heartbreak.

01:18

Harley: I feel like there's elements of the stuff but like, rather than being a heartbreaking story, she does heartbreaking moments really well. So, spoilers ahead. FYI, if you're already here, but I'm about to spoil stuff. So, heads up. So, for example, that like when Kishmish—

01:37

Holly: We're just getting straight into it. Okay, yeah.

01:41

Harley: We'll just cuz I think like, in order to continue this conversation to its logical conclusion, I have to kind of explain what I mean. But yeah, when Kishmish dies, yes, that the heartbreaking it's very much like the dog dies moment, even though Kishmish is not but like, like, you know…

01:58

Holly: He is a bit like a pet isn't he?

02:00

Harley: No but he needs, like that thing in the like, so he's like a shadow bat kind of figure. Yes, he's a bit like a pet. But it's like, I think the way that that's written is that thing where it's like, it's heartbreaking in the like, Oh no, the dog’s gonna die in a movie or whatever. It's like that moment. And I think she does a really good job of that. And I think also Karou’s guilt. So Karou is our main character. And at one stage kind of with her father figure is like questioning him and pushing back against stuff that she doesn't like, you know, why haven't you explained this to me? Why don't I understand what's going on? I like you're hiding things from me. And then it's completely cut off from them and find out that they've all kind of been massacred essentially. That was very heartbreaking. And yes, with like, living with that guilt, and also living with the like, there's a period of time where she is not sure if they're alive or dead and has no way of finding out and I think that whole process is very…

02:54

Holly: Yeah, she conveyed the like, the loss there very well, the not just like, physically lost, but emotionally lost and feeling very, like out of place. Yeah, she did a very good job with that.

03:05

Harley: Yeah. So just to backtrack a little bit and explain the story. I would describe it correctly if you feel like I've missed anything at the end of this. But we start off with Karou, who is an art student with a vivid imagination. So, she's got these art books that everybody loves looking at full of these like weird and wonderful characters. And we find out pretty much from the get-go that she actually hasn't imagined these fantastical creatures that she grew up in a magic shop, where the owner of the magic shop basically lives in another dimension, grants wishes, and is a Chimaera, so is a mix of creatures. So, she grew up with like a woman who's got the torso of a woman, and then the body of a snake, just as an example of one of the Chimaera she grew up with. So, she's just a normal human.

03:54

Holly: Or so we think.

03:56

Harley: But she does inhabit this kind of magical world. And part of the magic shop is that it exists in another dimension, and it has doors that go to different places. So, she can like walk into the magic shop in Prague, which is where she lives and step out of the door in the middle of Paris, or wherever in the wild. And there is another drop-off, which does eventually go through into another world entirely. So, at the start of this story, we see that there are some sightings of angelic beings, I guess. And there are these handprints that keep appearing being burned into the woods or various doors throughout the world. And no matter how much people try and paint over them, or cover them up, whatever, and the handprint burns itself back, almost straight away.

04:40

Holly: And so very quickly find out that these doors with the handprints are actually the portals. So, the doors that we can step through to visit the other worlds.

04:50

Harley: Yeah. So, it’s access to the magic shop. So, it's like they're essentially marking all the ways that the magic shop can access our universe. So, once they've identified all the doors, they essentially burn them all or destroy them all, which is what causes Karou to lose access to Brimstone, who's her father figure in the owner of the magic shop and grantor of wishes. And the rest of her magical friends, I guess.

05:19

Holly: So, I guess the reason why we picked this one, as we mentioned last week, because we didn't really do Christmassy things. And at a stretch, this is Christmassy. Because you’re like, Oh, there’s angelic creatures. Close enough, right?

05:36

Harley: I think that was my exact quote. I don't know if I can do a second Christmas one, but this one's got angels in it. Is that close enough? It's not Christmassy at all. Anyway, it's got angels in it, it's fine. So Merry Christmas round two sort of not really,

05:53

Holly: Not really, not even close. I mean, if we're going to really dig into it, like Christmas was a holiday stolen by pagans, and there were definitely no angels in the pagan celebration.

06:05

Harley: Yes, it's close enough. Well, I feel like The Mists of Avalon was an even bigger stretch.

06:12

Holly: So, the magic in this book is wishes or wishes, which is also kind of Christmasy. We make Christmas however we wish to fat men for you don't have to recall your teeth that we don't have to repeat that hate that.

06:28

Harley: So, there's a sort of currency of wishes. And I can't remember the names of all the… so she names or the different wishes. But essentially, there's like some you can have like small wishes, which are in abundant supply, or you can have like really, really big wishes and the biggest wishes. The only way that you can buy one of the biggest wishes is with an entire set of human teeth that you've ripped out of your own jaw. And it has to be you and it has to be your own teeth. But you also can't like I couldn't be like, hey, Holly, can you rip on my teeth out for me? Why are you crying? So, that will not earn you your big wish? You have to do it yourself? I already don't have all my teeth. So, I'm fucked. Basically. Not all of my teeth grow in my mouth.

07:08

Holly: Where did they grow? 

07:09

Harley: In a lab, I guess. Man-made.

07:11

Holly: Oh, I thought like… I don’t know.

07:20

Harley: I have grown no teeth in my vagina, Holly.

07:24

Holly: So, but it doesn't count if you just like collect all of your baby teeth and be like, Haha, expelled myself wink, wink.

07:31

Harley: And you also can't collect the teeth of the dead. So, they do exchange the teeth of the dead for wishes, but not for the big ones. However, wishes can go awry. And we see that especially with the big ones, even one of the characters that get introduced kind of early-ish in the book. So, the doctor. And I think this is another example of something that she does in a way that's quite sad, are we meet this character that so because Karou has grown up in the magic shop, she's met a lot of these people. And a lot of the people that they deal with are like poachers, and not very nice people who are ripping teeth out of like humans that they're trafficking or animals that they've illegally hunted or any of that kind of stuff. But we meet somebody who used to be a doctor and he'd work in like war zones and things like that. And he would just take the teeth of people who'd already died after having made every effort to save them. You know, the reality of war is there are plenty of times you are too late, and there's nothing you can do, and he would just take those teeth, however, he was desperate for knowledge. So. he ripped out all of his own teeth. He got a big wish he wished for knowledge and he, instead of getting just this fun, infinite wisdom, got himself a fallen angel that attached itself to his shoulders and whispered hideous nothings in his ear. So, he did get his wish, he got knowledge, but it's very much like a genie wish, where he got knowledge in a way that kind of backfired. So instead of being this super smart doctor, man, he became this kind of crazy, homeless pathetic figure. And I think that she does a really good job of kind of through Karou’s eyes describing the way that he was once this really kind man who happened to know a wish monger and then became something through the kind of backfiring power but wish became someone who is very pathetic and miserable and unhappy and all that stuff.

09:19

Holly: But isn't that what they say? The more you know, the unhappier you are.

09:23

Harley: There's nothing quite like being an idiot to keep you happy. I think that that's something that the author does really well is those kinds of, she doesn't flinch from those moments of pathetic-ness, or hideousness, or any of that kind of stuff. And I actually think Razgut is a really interesting character. So, Razgut is the angel, the fallen angel that's attached itself to the doctor. And we initially, it's like invisible to human eyes, but you can I think there's a theme throughout the book that shadows show the truth. So even when something is disguised as a human, you'll often see the truth of it in its shadow or like angels. You and see the shadow of the wings.

10:01

Holly: Which is a very cool visual. And she did explain that very well.

10:07

Harley: But yeah, so you can see that he has this shadow kind of thing but you can't see this thing on his back. And then the moment that Karou meets Akiva who's the kind of angel we follow, you see Razgut get any here's this like, hideous thing that's attached himself to and he's like whispering all these horrible things. And Akiva is the only one who understands him because it turns out he's speaking Angel. And, and she hasn't. So as far as I'm aware, she hasn't finished the series. So, I just listened to them as audiobooks. And I had a whole bunch of driving, and I've gotten further along than you have, but I still there's still stuff that's not resolved. Like they never actually talked about why Razgut was banished or deluded to from the very first book, it's like you angels don't know your own history for like the seraphim should ask more questions. And the doctor I think, flat out says to Akiva at one stage, You should ask him why he's banished. But Akiva is busy being like, He's no angel. He's no seraphim, he's not one of us. And then by the time he questions that stuff, I feel like it goes a frustratingly long time of nobody being like Alright, Razgut spill it. But maybe that's just because I'm an inherently curious person. And if I found a fallen angel, and everybody had kind of been like, how did he get here? Nobody knows. It was for me to stick around. I would be like, Wait, why are you here? Why are you like this? Whodunit? And obviously, it's the nature of a story that they're waiting for some kind of big reveal. But I will admit, I found that frustrating, because that's kind of my very first thing is like, Okay, we've established he's a fallen angel. Why did you get how did you get here? And it exceeds the limitations that I'm willing to place upon lack.

11:48

Holly: We are very different people. In a lot of ways.

11:51

Harley: You wouldn't ask that question?

11:52

Holly: I don’t think I'd ask the question. Not to their face.

11:56

Harley: But the opportunity has been opened up more than once?

12:00

Holly: Okay, if the opportunity is there. Absolutely, I’m going to take that opportunity.

12:02

Harley: It’s not like I'd be like, ‘nice to meet you. Why you like that?’

12:07

Holly: You would though, I feel like, depending on the person.

12:09

Harley: Depending on the person.

12:11

Holly: If you met an angel, absolutely you would.

12:14

Harley: Yeah. Because I mean, Razgut before you right hold explicitly that he's a fallen angel, which you do get fairly early on is essentially this like, demonic thing that's like clinging to this man's neck and has like, no working legs, and it's like wings have been ripped off and things that I feel like that's a level of trauma that I wouldn't necessarily just ask out of nowhere, but even Razgut a few times is that You don't know what you think you know. At what point do you go Okay, so what don't I know? Like, what are you trying to tell me here? Yes. Stop alluding to shit and spit it out? Or just stop altogether? Those are your options. Anyway, actually fine. Razgut is really interesting.

12:50

Holly: And he's very well-described, I think in a lot of scenes, despite your very quick recap there that made him kind of sound like Voldemort on the back of this girl's head, but no, he's very well, like explained.

13:06

Harley: You need to think more like, like a demonic parasite than something like Voldemort or things like that. So, she's obviously the author is obviously using a lot of very kind of old-fashioned imagery of mythical beings. And so it is that very, like, old.

13:22

Holly: Yeah, we're not clear on history. Yeah, not quite the like, fae or not. I'm an angel. But we're, we're more in that realm than, well, the angels, certainly. 

13:30

Harley: So, this is a bit of a spoiler for future books, but they're kind of where I left off in the story. Anyway, the angels have realized that there is a gap for them to get through to this world, they realize that humans have weapons that they have not previously had access to. And they're like, We could win this war with guns and things. But they've come into our world being like, No, we are angels. So, they've realized, so there's a bit of a kind of scene there, where it's in this version of the world is the like, they are Old Testament angels, but they seem unaware of their role in our religion because they discover that in the course of the book and go, Hey, we can use this to our advantage.

14:06

Holly: Imagine that imagine like, going into this realm and being like, Ha, I'm a cool creature, and then being like, Oh, do you guys worship us? Sick.

14:15

Harley: And they do allude from the very, very start before the angels have kind of made themselves known. Or there has been any reveal or any of that kind of stuff when they're still marking the doors at the very beginning. Like there's a feather that falls from one of their wings. And I think a nun reaches out to catch it, and it burns her so she ends up with the burn print of a feather.

14:35

Holly: Again, such cool imagery.

14:38

Harley: Very cool imagery, throughout.

14:39

Holly: Very unique stuff.

14:40

Harley: And have you ever been to Prague?

14:43

Holly: No.

14:44

Harley: It’s a fantastic city to set it in. Because it's such a like fairytale city, Prague. Yeah, we'll go. Maybe when there's a little bit less impending world doom in that part of the world. Yeah. That'd be great. But it's specifically focused there but like, it’s awfully close to Russia and Ukraine. 

15:01

Holly: Yeah, we can't really take tarts on tour.

15:05

Harley: Yeah, alliteration for a war zone is not so great.

15:09

Holly: Well, can you just sort yourselves out, so we can go?

15:13

Harley: Yes. Anyway, very cool part of the world and very much looks like a fairy tale setting. So it is, in essence, a bit of a Romeo and Juliet star-crossed lovers story. Yeah, well, this angel comes across a girl who he's like, Why can you speak the language of the Chimaera? And who are you? What are you so he follows her, and then discovers that she has the eyes, or Hamsas, whatever they're called, oh, that word once. So, she's got our eye tattoo on her palm. So, her hand essentially becomes a hand of Fatima or whatever, it repels the evil eye. Which, interestingly enough - I thought this was really interesting - works against angels. So, it established really early on that, even though we've got a sort of angels versus demons mythology thing going on there. The demons are not necessarily like even maybe they look more demonic, because they're half-animal, half-human, or they're like a mix of animals or whatever. But they're not necessarily the bad guys. Because if it protects against the evil eye, or it's a sign of protection, why would it work against the angels, if anything, it should go the other way,

16:19

Holly: I guess it comes down to intention, if that person is coming, or that angel, the creature or the whatever is coming at you with the intention to cause harm or the intention to.

16:28

Harley: But it doesn't seem to work, it seems to just cause pain to the angels, regardless of their intention, because there is a point somewhere in it where they like the Chimaera use it against, I think Akiva to like torture him basically, might not be Akiva. So, the hands don't necessarily protect against attack. They simply cause harm to angels, or seraphim, or whatever.

16:54

Holly: Hmm, that is an interesting little choice. 

16:58

Harley: So, I think that it was a really great way of establishing very early on, that this wasn't a good versus evil, or at least that it wasn't as simple as like, Karou is going to meet an angel and fall in love and everything's going to be happily ever after. And like, no. And then she just has to deal with the conflict of her family not liking angels is like, no, no, no. And as you get further and further into it, you realize that, like, so there's a war between the Chimaera and the angels, and I don't think either side is particularly good, or inherently evil, necessarily.

17:31

Holly: No, it's just yeah, like a bit of a power struggle.

17:33

Harley: And there's evil done on both sides. So, the angels, certainly, I think the angels probably have a little bit more of a military structure. So, there's a little bit less humanity, I guess. So, they have less opportunity to be good, rather than just following orders. But the Chimaera, there are plenty of Chimaera who do awful things as well, even if there are plenty of Chimaera who do good things. So like Brimstone, who's the father figure? And the wish monger, he throughout the books we see is an inherently good character. But Thiago, who's the leader of the Chimaera, like the warlord or king or whatever, is a terrible creature or person or whatever, like he's, he's a bad guy who gets worse with time. But the interesting thing is that we don't follow either of them. So, we follow Karou and Akiva. And both of them are kind of morally grey characters.

18:32

Holly: I would hesitate to name anyone that is actually a morally good character.

18:38

Harley: Yeah, but we'd certainly like we sit in that moral greyness in terms of Karou is so devastated by what happens to like the massacre of all the Chimaera and like Kishmish dying, Brimstone’s death. Yeah, Yasri is because she's seen the kindness of like, like Issa, for example. As much as she would strangle you with a snake if you wronged her or threatened her or things like that. She has always been kind to Karou and has always looked after her and raised her and things like that. And then it has been massacred just for being Chimaera.

19:12

Holly: I really liked her. Actually, I think she's really one of my favorites, if not my favorite character.

19:17

Harley: But like in her devastation from that she helps the Chimaera cause more damage and do more harm. And equally, Akiva is like when he gets heartbroken, he goes pretty cold and he's like, all Chimaera can die. So Issa was your favorite? I think so. I think my favorite is Zuzana.

19:37

Holly: I do live Zuzana, and do things.

19:40

Harley: So Karou’s best friend is like the comic relief. I want to say yeah, yeah. So, how is she described, she's like a tiny fairy, but one that bites?

19:50

Holly: Yeah, so she's a ballerina. So, she's quite or, she at least embodies…

19:57

Harley: So, she's the daughter of a family of puppeteers. The ballerina thing I think comes in because of the act Karou suggests to her. So, they were in art school together, and she reversed it. So, she becomes the puppet and makes a puppet puppeteer, like a giant puppeteer that that's actually the puppet and does it in reverse. And she can be the marionette. And she does this as part of her project. So yeah, but yeah, she's this tiny, feisty little thing who's often very funny. So sassy. And will give anybody shit.

20:29

Holly: Yeah. Not afraid to go up to exes and whatnot. And just like, tell him how it is. Who was the one that threw…? Was it her that threw the little balloon? What was in the balloon? It wasn't that. I wanted it to be a bag of piss. But it wasn't.

20:45

Harley: Yeah, I can't remember what was in it. So, she's that friend that I think part of the reason why I like her so much is, because this is totally my vibe. She'll be like, let's come up with the most vicious plot, we can get revenge on your shit ex with, not necessarily, any intention of executing it. But just to be like, I'm gonna make you laugh at the idea of me pouring a bowl full of urine on his head or a balloon full of urine on your ex-boyfriend’s head, but she will follow through to that point where they do throw a balloon of something on his head.

21:13

Holly: I think was like shaving cream or something. But her first plan was absolutely urine. Yeah. 100% urine. And the only reason it wasn't urine was because she couldn't get someone with an appendage to pee in a balloon for her. Now that probably wouldn’t work anyway, but…

21:29

Harley: Unfortunately, she did not get to find out. No.

21:33

Holly: Unfortunately. 

21:34

Harley: I'm glad you enjoyed it. In large part because I don't want to just exclusively recommend you things you hate. But I would say that I recommended things you'd hate. But I did force you to read things that you'd hate.

21:47

Holly: Well, I'm just generally not a…like when I read fantasy, I am a big fan of magic school fantasy. So, your Harry Potter, Zodiac Academy.

22:00

Harley: Getting into reading with something like that. 

22:03

Holly: Yeah, I wonder what could have done it. So I like primarily, I think human characters that have creatures around them. Rather than, like Fae characters or Chimaera characters. I do like a human character.

22:18

Harley: That's the interesting thing about Karou, though, is that she's not actually human. I mean, she, but she isn't that she isn’t.

22:23

Holly: And I wonder if that's why I enjoyed it because I identified more with it.

22:27

Harley: See, I figured you'd identify with her because she's creative. But she's also like she's very human in that trying to problem solve, I think that the author has done a really good job of making her somebody who doesn't always make the right choice and has genuine consequences to that. But yeah, she is somebody who has a bit of spunk and survives on her own and all that kind of stuff in a way that I thought that you would enjoy.

22:50

Holly: Yeah. I mean, I still had there were a few issues that I had with the book. But I did overall, quite enjoy it.

22:56

Harley: Yeah, yeah, I definitely had some, I don't know that I had problems with the first book, specifically so much as kind of reading the rest of the series. I think there were a few things that it was like, okay, the suspense has gone on too long for this.

23:10

Holly: Oh, definitely. There was a lot of suspense, which is fine.

23:14

Harley: It's just like, I just think it went on a little bit too long with not enough moments of being rewarded. And I think some of that is sometimes giving that hint too early. Like if there was that thing of Razgut being a fallen angel, but then it's not necessarily brought up until down the track. Somebody is like, Did you ever ask him and they're like, Oh, I knew. It then gives you less time as a reader to be like, asked why? Somebody? Anybody? Anybody ask the question. Nobody's asking the question still. And there's yeah, there are a few things like that, in the books that are not helped by the fact that the second book goes back in time. But yeah, there are a few moments that are a little bit frustrating, especially over the course of multiple novels, because of course, knowing it to series you're not going to get the payoff for everything in the first book, you're just not.

24:04

Holly: So, it is a series, and everywhere that I saw it online or marketed. It was a trilogy, but you've read will listen to at least three and it's not resolved yet. Hmm. Interesting,

24:17

Harley: I think the other thing is, and I mean, I guess this is how much self-control do you have as a reader? To which I would probably answer little to none. I think the first so the first book ends on this massive cliffhanger moment that I think is brilliantly done because you do like you get to the end of the book and your work. Excuse the fuck out of what?

24:39

Holly: How dare you end like that.

24:41

Harley: Get back here. And tell me the rest. And it is such a good click like it's and she nails the cliffhanger. But when you are not in the public, like you're not reading it in real-time, and you can just go and binge the next book. I feel like that kind of there is almost a little bit of a book hangover for it that I was like 90% of the way through The second book or almost possibly even in the third book before I realized that I had that book hangover, and I probably should have stopped and read something else before I came back to it because it's such a big moment.

25:10

Holly: Yeah. So that's kind of where I am now. So, I read the first one. And then I immediately started the second one. And then I've very quickly kind of not lost interest, but I kind of, I didn't absorb as much but yeah, I hit my drinking wall. And I just kind of found like, yeah, I probably needed a palate cleanser in between the two to keep me riled up to keep going. I'm not sure that the second one really starts in a place that carries on with that cliffhanger momentum. Because it does go back in time. And it's just kind of like, oh, and now there's a whole bunch of stuff. And like, yes, we learn about Karou’s backstory, and all of these. And it's very interesting. And it's well done. But there's too much, bringing us back into real-time earlier for at least a little bit more.

26:03

Harley: It is a very kind of hard gear shift. And it's a hard gear shift to make when you go straight back-to-back. 

26:11

Holly: So essentially, Brimstone, who is the like adopted dad of Karou kind of has this wishbone. He always has this wishbone with him. And then when he disappears, the wishbone ends up in Karou’s hands, which she was previously never allowed to touch is never allowed such ever. So there's this moment between Akiva and Karou, where they have this beautiful intimate moment, and then they make the decision to break the wishbone and restore her memories of her life beforehand, which includes her previous name. So, once we shift gears into the second book, Karou is no longer Karou. She's Madrigal. And for me, I think that was a little bit too much of a shift, because it almost felt like it was a different story, not just a different time period in the same story, it was a whole different story. And I think it took me a little bit of time to adjust to that.

27:08

Harley: And I feel like it almost needed to be out of series. So, like a prequel or but like not the next book. Yeah, it would have made a really good prequel. Yeah. And as a tide over, like, if it was something that was like, Oh, it's a prequel, but it was published in between the first and second book, so that you get a bit of a backstory and things like that, but not as the second book. I think I probably would have enjoyed it more. But yeah, that sudden gear shift is that like, it really does. I mean, I think in general, after that cliffhanger ending, treat it like you're gonna get a book hangover. Because like–you know, when you do too many shots, or you're drinking, like those good cocktails that don't taste too boozy, and then you stand up or you like, you go to the bathroom, and you sit down, and you're like, Oh, fuck.

27:55

Holly: Yes, I have had too many. But it's like, it's the one from two drinks ago. that's causing the problem here. It's not the one you just had. 

28:03

Harley: Yeah, well, it's that thing of the like, you know, where you do like two or three shots, and then you go back to like drinking vodka sodas, and it's the shots that fucked you up. But you're like halfway through a vodka soda when you're like, I think I'm done drinking.

28:15

Holly: I think I should have been drink done drinking a while ago.

28:18

Harley: I think I might have made some poor life choices. Yeah, it's the book equivalent of that.

28:24

Holly: Yes. Not saying the author made poor life choices. She's made some very, very good choices.

28:29

Harley: No, it's like it is very good. It like don't get me wrong, it is fun drunk, but you will suffer the consequences of not knowing when to call it quits. Or take a break.
 

28:39

Holly: Eat some food. Have a coffee? palate cleanser book?

28:43

Harley: You need a book to be the glass of water in between? Yep, pace yourself.

28:49

Holly: Which is exactly what I've done. So, I've kind of abandoned the book for now. I'll come back to it. But I am currently halfway through a palate cleanser book. Yeah. No, we'll come back to it to finish at least the trilogy, or whatever else. The story.

29:05

Harley: Yeah, I don't know that it's a book that I would binge again. But also, I hesitate to say won't binge-read them. Because I don't know how you can get to that ending and not immediately go fuck whatever these girls said. Anybody who said, I'm going to read the next book I need to know.

29:25

Holly: Yeah, I think that's very valid. I read the first sort of three-quarters of the first one over. I wasn't super invested yet. And I kind of had a lot on so it probably took me about five days to get through the first three-quarters of it. And then they broke the wishbone. And it was just like whoosh, downhill from there. I binged it to the end of the novel and then I binged a good portion through the next one before I was like, I am not absorbing this. I need a break.

29:54

Harley: So I downloaded the first book when I had a whole stack of driving to do so I downloaded it on audible and listen to it. And it was one of those ones that I was like, oh, yeah, like I'm enjoying this. This will be one that I reread every so often, like maybe not obsessively or anything like that. But like, I'll reread it every so often I can enjoy this again. The pacing is good, I'm enjoying it ticks all the boxes of books that I like to read, and then got that ending, and I'm pretty sure I pulled over on the side of the road to download the next book.

30:28

Holly: I need to know what happens next, right now can confirm I've done that sort of thing, maybe not with this one? But yes.

30:33

Harley: Well, I had like 40 minutes of country driving ahead of me. So I was like, No, I can't just put a podcast on I need to know what happens next in this story. So yeah, I definitely had that moment. And I don't know how you would not have that moment from that wishbone, cliffhanger kind of moment. Because it is such a sudden, in a really good way. It's a really sudden shift, I guess is the best way. And maybe that's why the shift again into backstory is just a little bit disconcerting because it is kind of throwing you in one direction then the other. And it's been a hangover so much. It's a pacing shift. But like a roller coaster moment where you're like, Oh, I went around one too many corners. I was just one too many mini loop de loops for my stomach to handle. So yeah, like, but yeah, I feel like it makes it sound like stories are bad. And it's really not.

31:28

Holly: I think the start of the second book just doesn't quite live up to the expectations that the cliffhanger put in place. And that's fine. That's fair. But just don't go into the second book expecting the same pacing as that last portion of the first book, because it's not, it chills the fuck out again. 

31:48

Harley: I think it's one of those ones that I'm really curious about, for the people who read it in real-time, had to wait however long for the author to publish book two and how that went for them and how that affected their attachment to story one versus story two, and all that kind of stuff. Because if you're anything like me, when books come out in a series, and I have to wait, I often will read the books I have in the interim. Or when the new book comes out. I'll read the pre-existing books. So I wouldn't necessarily be coming off that intense cliffhanger moment fresh, no need to be changed. I wonder how that affects the experience of reading them and enjoying them and all that. And I actually think it probably would be a good thing. Like I feel like it would work in its favor.

32:41

Holly: Yeah. I think so, too.

32:42

Harley: I'd be really interested to talk to somebody who read it in real-time.

32:45

Holly: When were these books released?

32:47

Harley: Yes. I don't know. I'll look it up. 

32:48

Holly: Well, the Wikipedia article is January 2013.

32:51

Harley: Published in September 2011. 

32:56

Holly: Yes, Days of Blood & Starlight is the second one published in November 2012. So about 12 months between them just slightly more. And then the third one is Dreams of Gods & Monsters. April 1, 2014. So that 15, 16 months.

33:13

Harley: Have I missed part of this? Maybe I haven't read the third one. Maybe I only read two? Have I lied this whole time?

33:21

Holly: They are quite hefty books. So, I understand why reading to you could feel like you had read more. They are very big, even if listened to as an audiobook and even on twice speed you like to listen to them.

33:35

Harley: One point five. Give us a moment. 

33:43

Holly: So, after a break, and an existential crisis.

33:46

Harley: I have read two out of three of those books. I definitely did not read this last. I 100% would have sworn that I only stopped because I ran out of books to read. It is very unusual for me to not finish something.

34:00

Holly: Yeah. So, I noticed that it was a trilogy. Like we said before, I finished the first one and I was like okay, how many books do we want to do for the podcast? Do we want to try and do the trilogy? Or just the one?

34:11

Harley: I was like I've read them all. It's not finished. Like this is genuinely like the Mandela Effect moment for me almost where I'm like, Have I accidentally stepped into an alternate universe? If so, is there an upgrade from the one I was in? 

34:27

Holly: If you were listening to them as audiobooks, it is quite possible that the third one was not available as an audiobook when you listen to them. Maybe that's what happened. And these are like 14, 15 hour, if not longer, books.

34:39

Harley: Yeah, I would have thought that I'd read more than maybe it's because it jumps between Karou and Madrigal that I've like split it in two. But yeah, I would have sworn that I'd read at least three books. Anyway, that's a fun thing to discover, like 40 minutes into talking about them like I know what I'm talking about.

35:00

Holly: So, if someone does know why he fell from grace.

35:05

Harley: Well, I’ll listen to or read the third one now that I know it exists, and that I have not in fact read it. Yeah, we were always intending to only focus on the first one so it's not the end of the day that I haven't finished the third one it does however change - there are some answers to some questions that I don't have, that hopefully are resolved in that one because if they're not that means she just straight up is not resolving them which rude!  Not the first or last time an author has done it Not the rudest thing an author has done to me, but that's because I've read Isobelle Carmody and I’m forever in my feelings about that one. That's fine. I won’t start a why can't Isobelle Carmody finish a book rant. Because if I do, we'll be here for six more hours.

35:44

Holly: Yeah. So, I was with Harley when she realized how long of a gap there's been between the books and also that there is a draft available that has not been published. And then she had to call a friend.

35:58

Harley: I was talking about Isobelle Carmody here for the record. So, for anybody who doesn't know Isobelle Carmody is an award-winning fantasy author who has been publishing books since her very first years of college in like the late-’80s, early-’90s. I'm pretty sure she still hasn't actually finished Obernewtyn, so she's yet to finish a series. if I'm wrong on that she's finished one series. And not the series I'm most excited for her to finish, which she ended on a cliffhanger and hasn't finished, despite apparently having this draft. It's so yeah, I had to call a friend and express my disappointment in the fact that no matter what she just, it just gets worse. And anyway, I'm still not over it. 

36:41

Holly: So, should I read these? Or am I gonna get upset as well?

36:45

Harley: Do you enjoy stories ending on cliffhangers with no resolution? And by ending, I mean, ending mid-story, so it's not actually ended?

36:52

Holly: No. Okay, well, maybe I’ll skip these ones, at least.

36:57

Harley: Until like 30 years after she's died when somebody finally dusts off the draft.

37:01

Holly: Well, I mean, we could go like Verity on her.

37:06

Harley: That's how Meg and I first started really, like deeply bonding as friends was over ‘we should write the ending of these books that we never got.’ Oh, yeah. Which we never got around to, because ADHD meeting ADHD. But yeah, that was the start of our we already knew each other we already got on but that was the start of us being like friend friends. Just a detour into many hours of Mario. And now she’s stuck with me, the wench. But I would not she like she's a brilliant author, which is part of the problem. She's actually incredibly brilliant. As a storyteller, she just can't end anything ever. But yeah, anyway, back to the old one, we're actually talking about her apparently cannon things, even though I'm oblivious to set endings.

37:52

Holly: So, one thing I think she did really, really well was the world-building. I think she's just done a really good job of building this kind of like, we've got Earth. But the cities, we've got those locations. And then you have this magic shop, which is almost suspended in like time and space, it feels like its own entity, which might just be the way I interpreted it.

38:12

Harley: No, it's absolutely the vibe I got.

38:15

Holly: And then you've got the rest of the like, dimensions beyond that. And she's done. I feel like she's done a really, really good job of building that out. Even though we don't necessarily see a whole lot of it.

38:26

Harley: Yeah, I think too, she doesn't really good job from the very beginning of establishing that that's there without being too verbose, I guess about it. So, because we follow stuff from Karou’s perspective, and she doesn't know about this other world initially, but she does know about the magic shop and that space between and all that kind of stuff. We establish fairly early on that there are other things that we don't know about. But without like, yeah, even when they find out about all that stuff, and all that kind of thing, I think that she really manages to convey quite a lot while steering clear of, let me monologue to you about 500 years of backstory and like, a little bit of that. And I mean, there's no 100% avoiding it. If you are building out a world that's not our own, because at some point, you have to tell people how the world functions just to be able to get to the story, but I think she does a really good job of not falling too far into that, which is a challenge. It's a very hard thing to do. The reason why, like show don't tell and all that kind of stuff is such age-old writing advice that still gets dusted off for writing classes is because our natural instinct is to tell, and I don't know where in the writing process she has managed to finesse that, whether that's something that just comes really naturally to her or whether she's got a good editor or whether she's a good editor of her own work, but wherever in the process that has been taken out or reworked. So, they've nailed it. Absolutely, because it feels like a really whole world. And it doesn't feel like you have to sit through pages and pages and pages of like, I fleshed out the entire universe. Look at me.

40:13

Holly: Yeah, I think a good portion of that also comes from bringing those little magical elements into the earth plane. We already know, we've already got the scene set. And then to bring little things like, absolutely love the imagery of the necklace. So, Karou has a necklace, which is strung with beads, which are essentially wishes. And then every time she wants to make a small wish because these are only small wish beads, one vanishes. So, she makes the wish it disappears, the necklace gets shorter, she goes home, she strings more wishes onto a necklace, and it gets longer again.

40:47

Harley: And then described as looking like, like African beads at one point in the thing. So, you get like a very quick visual of what exactly she's wearing and kind of how she's looking. And without too much like, really, she's just described as having tattoos and blue hair, and a string of beads. But I've got a very clear visual in my head of what Karou looks like. And even Zuzana is not there's not a lot of heaps and heaps of time spent describing her. But even just that description of like, this tiny little thing, who's like a fairy that will bite I'm like, immediately I have a visual.

41:23

Holly: Which I think that almost ambiguity in description, like a detailed description can be detrimental, should they turn this into a movie or as a series or something?

41:36

Harley: I don't know that she's necessarily even entirely been ambiguous because like they like…

41:41

Holly: I’ve just been using her, like finer detailed descriptions because you've been able to fill in the gaps.

41:47

Harley: Except that I think that the right casting person, it wouldn't necessarily be an issue because it is that thing of like casting a character rather than casting. Often when characters are really specifically described, people will cast the visual rather than somebody who can embody that character. Whereas Have you seen Lost Girl?

42:05

Holly: No.

42:06

Harley: Okay, so the girl who plays Kenzie, so Lost Girl is a TV series. It's about a succubus who doesn't know that she's fae but the fae world exists and they find her and she's got a human best friend who like that is how I picture it, Zuzana, and not necessarily visually, but the way that she behaves. Karou at the very beginning of her novel is on her way to art school and her ex-boyfriend shows up and is like baby, get back together with me, we're so good together. She's like, you're an asshole go away. And he kind of said something and she's like, fuck off. And then he turns up as the model in her art class and he's like, making a point of like, looking at her the whole time like making really intense eye contact the whole time like smirking at her and all these kinds of things. So, she uses her small wishes to make his ass itch basically.

42:57

Holly: Yes so, she gives him little itches in certain places starting really like his nose where he can scratch and then works his way out.

43:07

Harley: Well, so he can kind of alleviate a nose itch but because he's an artist model for a life drawing class, you can't really move so even a nose itch she can't really alleviate. But she gives him itches for a little bit and then stops and then itches for a little bit and then stops because they're just small wishes. So, they don't last for very long but works their way up to him having an itchy ass crack. And I think that that's a really effective way of showing that she does have that little bit of like spite or vengefulness in her.

43:36

Holly: And a sense of humor about her spite, too.

43:39

Harley: Yeah, but it's also it's like it's a way of showing that she had this negative quality without framing her as the bad guy. Because it is like he's a douche. And he does kind of deserve it. But she's also being spiteful. And oh, yeah, she's definitely not the bad guy it and we see that escalate, as the books go on. And the stakes become higher, and it's less about a douchey ex being a douche. And more about everybody I've ever loved has been massacred, slight escalation there. But yeah, I think that she like she establishes the type of person they are very well. And then it leaves the visuals blank enough that actually I think if anything, it would make casting easier. Yes, there will be people who will complain that they don't look exactly the way that they were described in my head, but it doesn't matter what you do. That's going to happen. Like I literally could write a book describing you as a person and you could come in and play that character and somebody would be like that’s not how I imagined her in my head. I feel like the casting’s wrong. Do you know what I mean?

44:35

Holly: I'm gonna have Margot Robbie play me, or Abby Chatfield if she decides to go into an acting career. Those are the two people I get told I look like.

44:42

Harley: I get Anne Hathaway. Or because my hair is red and I can be a bitch, Donna from Suits. And I'm like, I actually don't look that much like the actress, but I get what you're saying.

44:56

Holly: Yeah, but this is the vibe. That is the same vibe.

45:00

Harley: Actually, you know who I used to get? 

45:03

Holly: Not so much they unintentionally just can't with a really perfect example of what we were just discussing.

45:08

Harley: I get Kristin Ritter a lot. 

45:10

Holly: I don’t think I know who that is.

45:11

Harley: Kristin Ritter she played Jessica Jones?

45:14

Holly: Oh, yes. Correct. I do see that. 

45:18

Harley: Don't Trust the Bitch in Apartment 23. So a lot of people like vibe by like, visually, we don't particularly look alike. Beyond being skinny white girls. 

45:26

Holly: I'd say you look alike, facial structure and stuff. You look more like her than you do the actress that plays Donna.

45:32

Harley: Yeah. But I like even then I'm like a bit of a stretch. Where it's like Anne Hathaway. It's harder to see when I'm a redhead. But certainly, when I'm brunette, I see it. I'm not like, and listen, she's a beautiful woman. So, yay. But we both have that very, like, say the heaviness of the eyebrows and the quite strong features, even though they don't necessarily express themselves in the exact same way. I'm like, I see what you're seeing if that makes sense. Whereas with like Kristin Ritter, it's 100%. It's the vibe, or like Donna from Suits. It's the vibe. And yeah, that's exactly what I made where I'm like, visually, Anne Hathaway should play me reversed or whatever. I think we're about the same age. I think she's slightly older than me. I don't know. I can't say I've cared enough to ever look into that. But oh, she must be because I grew up with her in movies and stuff. So, she must be just a little bit older than me. Very important and necessary information. But yeah, like visually, she would be the kind of closest match, but then vibe-wise, there are other actors who I think would do a better job. And I think someone like Kristin Ritter is great at that, like, sudden switch between ridiculous and bitch that I endeavor to nail. But it's yeah, it's that like cheekiness and keeping you on your toes and all that kind of thing. And for like, which version of me you get, I don't know, which is where I think like Don't trust the B in Apartment 23 in that when that came out. And when that was on Netflix and everything. I was watching it for the first time, constantly. People were like, have you seen this because vibes. I was like Guys, I’m not scamming anyone. But thank you so much. I really appreciate it. She’s fabulous. I actually love Kristin Ritter I think she's hilarious. So, I'm down for that comparison. Yeah, it's not a bad comparison. So, who would be your vibe cast?

47:08

Holly: For me?

47:10

Harley: Margot Robbie's obviously the like one that you're like, she's a babe and the comparison I get the most so.

47:16

Holly: I think Margot will just do a good job. She's actually really fucking talented. Yeah. So, I actually met her quite a few times before she was like a big thing when she was our neighbor. So, I used to work at a little news agency, and she would often come in and buy her Dolly and Cosmopolitan magazines.

47:37

Harley: They don’t even exist anymore, do they?

47:39

Holly: I don't know. Maybe? So I’ve had a little bit of a conversation with her. And she was always really, like, genuinely lovely person. Because where I worked, this news agency was really not that far from where they filmed Neighbors, so she’d be on her way home from work. And so, who would you cast them? For Karou and Zuzana.

48:03

Harley: Zuzana, I would probably actually go find the chick from Lost Girl. And be like, Yeah, you can do it. Do you have any sisters? With the exact same energy you bring to the table? I don't know who I'd cast for Karou.

48:16

Holly: Because remember, they've got to be able to rock blue hair, which was a wish. And so, it does grow blue out of her head.

48:22

Harley: I do actually really like that her solution to have this weird, fantastical life is just to tell people the truth and let them be like, Fine. Don't tell me that. Oh, my God, where did you get this amazing blue hair? And she's like, It grows out of my head like that. People are like, Oh, you're just trying to get keep your hairdresser. And then they’ll walk off and she's like, Sure. Yep. Because she's like, I can lie to people. But then I get caught in a lie, or I can tell them the truth. And they can assume that I'm lying to be like, funny and ridiculous and annoying. But y’know, I don't have a person for Karou. To be honest. I don't think rocking blue hair would be as hard as people think it is. I think people have a hard time imagining actors with different hair colors, or outside kind of their assigned hair color. But I yeah, I don't know who necessarily has that energy. It doesn't help that she's clearly alternative. Like she's got tattoos and blue hair and all that kind of stuff. And I don't think most actors because you have to be kind of that every person thing, like canvas. What character from the books would you play? If you could play anybody and know that you're going to nail the acting part because that would be the hard part right? Oh, I don't think finishing drama at 18 really set me up for movie stardom.

49:35

Holly: I don't know. Maybe Brimstone? Because I can just be this grouchy, old man who plays with teeth and wishes.

49:43

Harley: A crocodile man. Oh yeah,

49:45

Holly: He was a crocodile, wasn’t he?

49:48

Harley: Do you know how much time you would have to spend in hair and makeup to make that happen?

49:51

Holly: Can I change my mind? I absolutely change my mind.

49:54

Harley: Who’s the most basic character?

49:55

Holly: I’ll be a half-snake lady. I can just slither into that suit, kinda?

49:59

Harley: Sure. Whatever you need to tell yourself. Probably walking around half-painted green or in some tracksuit pants with things on them so that they can CGI it.

50:09

Holly: Can I at least lie down while they paint me? Is just like, like a spray tan. You just go like, turn around, lean forward, but it's green.

50:18

Harley: Why do you think I'm an expert? 

50:20

Holly: I don't know, who would you play?

50:22

Harley: I think Issa would be fun, who would I play?

50:27

Holly: Razgut

50:28

Harley: I reckon it would be fun playing Razgut actually. I think that I would have a great time doing it. I think I'd execute it terribly. But I'd have a great time doing it. I actually want to say Madrigal, but not necessarily Karou.

50:43

Holly: Oh, yeah. You just got to think for those goat legs. Were they goat legs?

50:49

Harley: Deer, or something like that, anyway.

50:52

Holly: Not quite a centaur.

50:56

Harley: No, I just, I think because she straddles that kind of interesting thing between innocence and kind of that facing the realities of the world and all that kind of stuff. And yeah, I think Madrigal is quite an interesting character in a way that’s separate from how Karou is an interesting character. And I think that, yeah, like, I find that a loss of innocence kind of thing interesting. In a way that I like exploring, but also, she was never, like, to a certain extent, she's in the same position as say, Persephone in Neon Gods, but in a very different novel. But it is that like, the creepy threatening king of all it is wants me as his partner with his wolf head and all that. And he wants me because of this sense of purity that he has about me, and I don't want to be that person. I'm not that person on the inside. But I also am aware that I'm like, I’m in my first body, and I'm untouched and all that kind of thing in a way that he's fetishizing beyond who I am as a person. And I think that that navigating of that experience is really interesting. And yeah, I just like I think that's really interesting. And I think as somebody who's listened to too many actor roundtables and all that kind of stuff. But I think the thing of like, who would you play in a movie or stuff like that, for me anyway, is very much that thing for like, who's the most interesting to get inside their head? Yeah, or inside their experience of the world. And I think Madrigal is that for me, not so much Karou, but Madrigal is that for me, even if I do have to spend time in hair and makeup, getting my legs green screened, or wrapped or however the fuck they do it, because I don't know how they…

52:33

Holly: It’s probably like stilts or something.

52:35

Harley: …or a combination of things. I can actually walk in stilts. Not super high ones because my fear of heights kicks in, but like the ones that you would need for I'm slightly taller than human, not human legs, because I could walk…

52:47

Holly: So dear readers, listeners, and all of the above? Who would you like to cast as, do you guys have a dream cast?

52:57

Harley: Who are they? Any book?

52:59

Holly: Not even this book.

53:01

Harley: But if we could stay with this book for now. Yeah, I'd be really interested to see who you guys would do as a dream cast. I love people's dreams casts of books, or live-action versions of things or where I like, I'm always fascinated to see what other people say. And I always feel like I'm really bad at them. And then when someone's like, So and so in this role, I'm like, Oh, that's perfect. You've nailed it.

53:24

Holly: Yeah, it's yeah, just like I don't know enough actors’ names, as demonstrated when we doing dining in the dark and you were like, This person for this role. And it's like, I don't know who that is. And we're in the dark so we couldn't you were very drunk, you were like eight cocktails and I'm not surprised you're looking at me with such a blank stare. 

53:39

Harley: I don't even remember what we were casting.

53:41

Holly: I think it was Acotar. No, it wasn't. It was no I think Addie LaRue.

53:49

Harley: I have no memory of this.

53:49

Holly: Yeah, I think there are many things from that particular night you have no memory of. 

53:52

Harley: You’re not wrong.

53:57

Holly: You texted me the next day being like, Did I do my skincare routine? Because my skin feels pretty good today.

54:05

Harley: I woke up with great skin.

54:07

Holly: You did your five-step skincare routine, trashed on the floor of the shower. It was glorious too.

54:14

Harley: Well, I wish that I could give myself that level of commitment to my skincare when I'm not off my tits because lord knows I'd have glowing skin all the time. Anyway, apparently, I can only dream cast effectively when sloshed.

54:27

Holly: So, join us next week for another episode of Bimbo Book Club. Bimbos out.

54:32

Harley: Bimbos out.