TJR Double Feature P2 Transcript

© Bimbo Media

00:03

Holly: This is Bimbo Book Club with Holly.

00:12

Harley: And Harley.

00:14

Holly: Hello, and welcome back to part two of our double feature. This week, we're still talking about Malibu Rising and The Seven Husbands of Evelyn Hugo, by Taylor Jenkins Reid.

00:24

Harley: There's a bit of a conversational jump from last week because when we were recording, our audio died, but we're just going to jump straight back in from where we hit record again.

00:32

Holly: So, if you haven't listened to part one, we recommend you start there. Otherwise, let's do this.

00:40

Harley: Okay, I can’t remember what we were talking about. I think gay marriage.

00:43

Holly: And how much we liked Harry.

00:45

Harley: Yeah. Well, I just think that sometimes when you enter into a relationship that is honest and genuine, even if it's not sexual… To be fair, I also actually kind of think that marriage is a contract, it's a business deal. So even if you get married because of love, the love and the marriage are separate things. And I think that one of the reasons why that relationship is so healthy and why I think that I'd be really good in a lavender marriage and all that kind of stuff is because I am very kind of frank in that way. And very blunt in that way, where it's like one, I don't care if you're sleeping with other men, they’re clearly given you something that I can’t—even with a strap on, fucking a woman is different from fucking a man. And I appreciate that. But I think that yeah, like the marriage is that business arrangement part of it. And if you look at the way that Evelyn and Harry built their family, they were very practical about all of those conversations. And they never expected anything that the other one couldn't give because they were so practical. And they were so frank about it. And they had those conversations instead of just falling into default positions.

01:55

Holly: Yeah. And I think this is a recurring sort of theme, we only really see two types of relationships in these novels. The first one is like this, where they're gone into it really, practically, they've had a great conversation about how it's going to work. I mean, we even see it with Nina’s best friend, when her older partner proposes to her something like that. She says, Okay, but I'm not going to be faithful. But sure, I will be by your side every day. But I'm not going to be faithful all the time, I don't expect that of you either. And that was perfectly fine. Whereas the other kind of relationship that we see is where one person is completely naive. And the other person is just fucking everything else under the sun.

02:43

Harley: Actually, I think that there is the other one that we've seen in, what's his name? The brother that's sleeping with his brother's ex?

02:50

Holly: Hudson.

02:52

Harley: In their relationship, you know, it is that kind of choosing to be honest, and choosing to do that. So, and obviously, for Hudson’s storyline, he is the kid that essentially was abandoned by both of his parents, but so he is Mick’s son to somebody else and gets dumped on their doorstep. And basically, their mum goes, It's not your fault that this has happened. And you deserve to be raised with your siblings, and you deserve to be loved. So, she kind of takes him in as her own. And unfortunately, Mick treats him like one of his own, which means that when one gets abandoned, they all do. But he has that kind of choice of going, Do I leave this woman? She said, I'm pregnant, and I'm not getting rid of it.

03:39

Holly: Now she's picked a baby name. If it's a boy, it'll be one name, if it's a girl it will be that name, but either way, whether it's with this person or it's not with Hudson, she will be raising this child.

03:50

Harley: So, he knows that he's essentially making that same choice: Do I choose to be there no matter the consequences in my own life, or do I choose the road that's easier for me? Because his brother, Jay doesn't know that they have been seeing each other. And he is like, at the start of the book, he is trying to figure out a way to tell him and long story short, he finds out in not the right way, and loses his shit about it. But they do kind of come to that point where because Hudson's essentially like, I completely understand how you feel. And I'm not going to try and defend myself because I was in the wrong, but she's pregnant and I'm not going to abandon her.

04:29

Holly: I think it's also deeper than that, because Hudson says, I love her. I am in love with her. Whereas Jay was like, I just had fun with her. I didn't ever actually love her. And I think it's when he realizes that his brother is truly in love with this woman, that he is happy to deal with whatever consequences that his brother throws at him, whether it's a broken nose, which happens, or it's other. He's prepared to deal with that, and he makes a decision to not follow in his father's footsteps and walk away. He's going to do the right thing for her and for the baby. And also, for him.

05:05

Harley: Well, I just because I know he talks at one stage about how that adds an extra layer, because it's not just about him going, I can deny my own love and walk away from this woman that I love to make my brother happy or to fix the family or to do that kind of stuff. Because the decision isn't that simple. There is a child involved. So aside from the fact that I really genuinely love this woman. I don't want to turn out like my dad, where he grows up being like, Oh, yeah, that asshole dad, who was never here. Yeah, like fucked over my mom, and then just disappeared and didn't face any of the consequences. I don't want to be that person. I don't want to be that person for her because I do love her. But more importantly, I don't want to be that person for my kid.

05:48

Holly: I feel like this relationship still falls under that first sort of category, yes, it was the brother's girlfriend at the time when they started seeing each other. But they have gone into it fully knowing what's going to happen, that they have to come clean, that it's going to be messy, and that someone's going to get hurt emotionally and physically.

06:08

Harley: Yeah, I think that differs just in that most relationships people either go in eyes open, or they go in eyes shut. And I feel like that's one of the only relationships where they go in eyes shut, but hold each other's hand through the process of opening their eyes and handling their shit.

06:22

Holly: I would agree. And then almost it's like, Jay is the naive one in this situation.

06:30

Harley: And I think that we see Jay in the book, but also in how he talks about her when her kind of comes to terms with their relationship. He is somebody who unintentionally is like his father in that in using women to fill a void in himself. So, it's that like, because I mean, the girl that he's in love with and hooking up with in the book, he's actually in love with this idea that he's created for her being someone who doesn't care about him as the superstar surfer.

06:56

Holly: And I think this also comes back to what we're talking about earlier in that Nina pursued fame for the money, whereas Evelyn pursued fame for the fame. And Jay is the same. He's pursued surfing, for the covers and for that sort of thing. And what really kicked him into gear was the fact that his sister got paid for surfing. Yes, it was surf modeling, and not actually surfing. But she got paid for surfing before he did. And that's what really kicked him into gear to become this like, pro surfer.

07:29

Harley: Yeah. And everybody was suddenly talking about superstar Nina Riva, daughter of Mick Riva.

07:33

Holly: Exactly. He was like, What about me? Whereas Hudson also appears in just as many magazines because he's the one that's taking the photo. So, his name is appearing just as many times, but he's not doing it for the fame. Even on the street, nobody would know who he is. And he likes it that way.

07:53

Harley: I think then you also have also got the repeating motif of—what's the younger sister named? Kit?

07:59

Holly: Kathryn, Kit.

08:02

Harley: Realizing that she's gay. And it's interesting that these things are kind of touched on throughout different generations, because obviously, the reality of being gay in not just in Hollywood, but in general, in kind of The Seven Husbands of Evelyn Hugo kind of original time period, like they literally talk about Stonewall happening, while they're in their little four-way lavender marriage.

08:23

Holly: Yeah, which little side note, I really appreciated the way that Celia wanted to go down and be a part of it. But they convince her not to, because had she gone down, had they gone down, it would no longer be about the message, it would be about them showing up. And I think that's also very relevant to what's happening now with Roe vs. Wade and all the issues that we're having, where certain celebrities are down, and they're doing it you can see for the clout, they're not doing it for the passion, because it's not something that has been on their radar for a long period of time. It's only just now.

08:59

Harley: Just purely from a technical standpoint, I think it's really brilliant that it's Celia's husband that actually really articulates that well, because he's not given a lot of character in the book otherwise, because of course, it's Evelyn’s story. And he's not really relevant to her. He's the man that her husband is in love with. And the man that’s acting as a beard for the woman that she's in love with. So, they're friends, but they're really kind of drawn together by circumstance. And he's not hugely relevant to her personal story. So, it's nice kind of giving him that little bit of like, insightful character development, where you get the idea that he's a really nice man who's really considered without kind of being a bit ham-handed about it or a bit heavy about it. And it's also really relevant to the group as a whole. And I think it's really like one of the things that I really love is that they all are convincing her not to participate. But she was always passionate about that stuff. And so, it's that thing it's like sometimes, even when you really do care about the cause, and Even when you really do, like you have been invested for a long time, the reality is that the most obvious way to help is not always helpful. And looking at how to be helpful often comes from looking at other people's perspectives. I mean, even when you look at so often people donate on a really basic level. Often people donate for homelessness stuff, just pads, pads, pads and it's often more comfortable, especially if you have limited access to showers to have tampons. And so often homeless women prefer to have access to tampons, than pads. But that's not something that's often communicated. Because the people out there buying all this stuff and genuinely doing it out of a desire to be helpful. It's not like it's a bad thing. But they're not necessarily doing the thing that's in the absolute best interest because they're not, it's coming from their desire to be helpful more than that need for help being communicated.

10:55

Holly: We see that with disaster cleanup and stuff as well. The number of people that come down that just need to be managed and are not actually helpful.

11:03

Harley: Or the fact that soup kitchens turn people away on Christmas Day, but the rest of the year can barely get staff.

11:08

Holly: Exactly. So, what they touched on in a book, instead of going down to show face, they decided to donate what they could where they could, which was for them a lot as they are large, wealthy celebrities, which I think was very relevant, if you use your money to make a statement as much as you can, even if we are even, it's quite a statement.

11:33

Harley: Yeah, absolutely. But yeah, sorry. Anyway, for where I started, we have gone off track.

11:38

Holly: Tangent number 742. Back to our regularly scheduled programming.

11:45

Harley: But I think it's really interesting the way that it's handled throughout these different time periods where, in the ’50s, and ’60s, it simply wasn't spoken about, one simply wasn't gay, and especially for gay men, it was still illegal. So, one certainly didn't speak about it unless you wanted to go to jail, which was a very real threat

. And that was assuming that you went through the legal system and didn't just meet a local lynch mob.

12:13

Holly: Or they were taken out by AIDS.

12:16

Harley: But I mean, just in terms of the way social pressures and things like that, it was a life and death situation. And in some places, it still is, I don't want to dismiss that I'm very much talking about kind of that Western world like America, Australia kind of thing, not so much all of the other places in the world, because that's a conversation that could take lifetimes. But then in the ’80s, it's still that thing of the like, I would argue that that's kind of the time period where you were either a dyke or a porn star. And there's no in between. You can't just be like a normal person who happens to be gay, or a normal person who happens to be bisexual. You're either a raging fucking dyke, or you're a porn star. That's it. And if you don't fit into either of those categories, and I'd argue that that's where Kit, it's where she's like, well, I'm not that specifically like marching on the streets, steel capped boots, kind of lesbian. But I'm also not out here just trying to turn boys on and I'm not really gay. I'm like, this is a genuine feeling. That's for me. It's not about men's sexual entertainment. But it's also not this like, like that steel-capped boots dyke thing. She still kind of feels like I don't know how to address this. I don't know how to bring this up. I can't say that. Because, yeah, it's still as much as there's been all this progress since Evelyn's time. It's not that much progress in the grand scheme of things. It's just not illegal.

13:39

Holly: Yeah. And she didn't have any real role models. She had a supermodel sister, and a couple of brothers. And essentially no parental figures, aside from that sister, to help guide her through this. She was definitely a late bloomer. We realize now why, as was her friend.

14:01

Harley: Rebecca? I can't remember her name to correct it.

14:05

Holly: Anyway, whoever she was, as was her friend, who kind of went loose the night of the party and bragged about kissing five boys. Scandalous. And so, there's a real juxtaposition between one stepping into her like sexual power, and one kind of realizing that she didn't want that kind of sexual attention from boys at least.

14:31

Harley: I think too, it's still relevant today in terms of straight being the default position where you have to come out like why is that a thing? So, even in today's day and age actually be like, Heads up folks, I maybe don't like the opposite sex, instead of it just being like, Do you have a partner? Or Do you have a boyfriend? Like, No, I have a girlfriend.

14:59

Holly: Side tangent, another one, that Sims have recently allowed you to select the sexuality of your Sim. So now everyone is going, Yay, we can have gay Sims, but didn’t they never really have a sexual preference? Previously, you could just make him sleep with whoever you wanted. So, it's almost as if Sims have kind of like begrudgingly made straight Sims.

15:27

Harley: I also think that that, again comes to that, we all have to make a decision and we have to tick a box like, why can't you have your Sim just have a great relationship with another woman and then be like, You know what, babe? It's not working out for us.

15:40

Holly: Right? It's a bunch of pixels.

15:43

Harley: But also, that's how humanity works. It's not like there's some god out there. Like, even if we are in a simulation, it's not like there's some guys out there that I think I mean, if anything, there's a sliding scale, not a box that you check when they're like, How straight do I want to make it? Not that straight.

15:57

Holly: I'm pretty straight. But I definitely like boobs. Or, you know, there's so many…

16:02

Harley: Like if it turns out, we are Sims and we are in a simulation, we definitely are getting a sliding scale thing. And they're definitely just walking around with that like someone's hitting randomize.

16:15

Holly: Yeah, it's almost like prior to millennials, it was like, capped. There were only a few different spots on the scale we can put you.

16:25

Harley: But I do think that that comes back to people's search for which kind of comes back to everyone who go and her thing about not being called lesbian or straight. But that need to label everybody. Like, what category do you fit into? Even people's thing of the like, I find quite often people like is that a guy or girl is like doesn't matter. It absolutely doesn't matter. And if you can't immediately identify what category to put someone in, does it matter? I mean, by no means if someone says I prefer to be addressed this way, address them that way. But like, the fact that you can't put them in a box, you can't take a box for that random person walking down the street matters not at all. And the thing is, it's not a box. And I think that this is where Gen X is probably starting to, not Gen X, what's the new one?

17:11

Holly: Gen X then millennials then Gen Z, then there's alpha.

17:15

Harley: That's what I'm thinking of Gen Z, I think are increasingly like, create the box be whatever you want to be, I don't give a shit. And you find that older generations are the ones that tend to be, and I'm actually included in that. So, we're elder millennials?

17:29

Holly: We are elder millennials.

17:32

Harley: But I would even include kind of our generation in that. And certainly, previous generations, often the connection that they have about like, oh, people want to be addressed all these different ways. And this, that, and the other hand, and it really comes down to I can't fit you in a box. And I'm angry that I don't know where to put you because now my filing system is locked up. And this is where maybe ADHD comes in handy. Because I'm like, Oh, baby, my filing system was fucked up well before your pronoun change. We're not talking about my filing system. You said they. Cool, I can work with that.

18:06

Holly: I guess this also comes down to like the generational issues and the role models and things because we can see that Evelyn had no role models. It was illegal, it was brushed under the rug and everything. And we can also see that Kit doesn't really have any role models, either. But she's still in a better position because she's generationally a few years later. Post Stonewall. She's got access to things like the Internet where she can research these things. And I think it's like 2017, I thought they were born in the ’80s. But the final? I think you're right because Nina was on the cover in the ’80s.

18:50

Harley: Mick Riva was a ’60s star. So, for him to have kids, you would have had to have them.

18:55

Holly: Yeah. So, she hasn't quite had access to the internet.

18:59

Harley: But she's got the 14-part Encyclopedia Britannica.

19:03

Holly: Yeah, that probably doesn't mention anything.

19:09

Harley: I think that's as close as they get to the internet, but she is not far off.

19:10

Holly: So, she is in a better position. But she still doesn't have those role models, which is probably why she it took her so long to realize that she wasn't straight.

19:18

Harley: Yeah. Well, and I think too, it's like it is very modern, and I think we underestimate how modern it is. But it's a very modern theme to have access to the idea that you might be something other than the default setting from a fairly early age. And I think that that comes in line with like, absolutely all of the work that people have done to be seen. And all the people who've had more courage than Evelyn at least to be out in the open about something that is dangerous.

19:47

Holly: Yeah, it's definitely a generational and a like a generational parenting thing.

19:51

Harley: But it’s also access to things like the internet because I know being an older millennial of a generation that kind of, I grew up throughout the birth of the internet becoming what it is today, like, I mean, the internet was technically around before I was born, but it kind of came into mainstream use over my childhood into early adulthood.

20:14

Holly: Like, I didn't really have access to the internet until I was in high school. We had a computer at home, but we didn't really use it for anything.

20:22

Harley: But I still remember that like, I mean, it was an old computer by that stage. But they were still recent enough that I remember like school had it. My primary school had some old computers with the green text on the black screen.

20:35

Holly: Yeah, yeah, I think we had one of those in the classroom.

20:39

Harley: So, it's very much that thing of the way that you have access to I think we were probably the first generation really, aside from like, hardcore nerds, we were the first generation to really have easy access to people like us, regardless of where in the world we are. Because prior to that, the only access that you had to people was people around you. So, if you grew up in a small country town, or you grew up in a huge town, but or a city or whatever, but people around weren't like you, you had no frame of reference for that. And I think that's the thing that Kit falls into is that she does have people around her like her and that her siblings like to surf and obviously, Malibu is surfing. So, she does have people around her in that sense. And it's her coming to realize that it's something that she's never identified because those people aren't around her mentally or physically. And so yeah, there's that, like, she doesn't have the role models. But also, she doesn't have access the way that we do today to people like her traveling alone.

21:44

Holly: Yeah, and now it's, you know, we know exactly where to look. can Google anything from your phone from your watch even.

21:51

Harley: I think particularly around the, well, the entire alphabet, but particularly around being gay or lesbian. It's something that is not only that you're able to access but something that is for most of the western world anyway, really easy to access.

22:08

Holly: Yeah, we're very lucky in particularly in Australia, in Melbourne, we have gay clubs, we have down the road, just down the road from here. We've got a beautiful, rich culture that comes with it. There's still stigma. Yes, there's still violence, yes. But it's much better than a lot of the world. And they're very accepting. They're very accommodating and welcoming of anyone to the scene, provided you're not there just to go cut them.

22:36

Harley: Yeah, I think there's, it's easy to go, Oh, look at how far they've come. No more needs to be done. And I don't think that's accurate at all. Like you said, there's still stigma there, still, that kind of stuff. But I do think it's really like I appreciate despite the fact that doesn't necessarily personally affect me. I appreciate that we live in a city and a country with like Russia, where you can still be jailed for it and still illegal and even speaking out about it, you are pretty much guaranteeing that you and your entire family are going to have a bad time. I think that it's important when you're looking at the history of it, you're looking at, say everywhere you go, you need to kind of look at the context of somewhere like Russia, where it's easy to think of that it's something that's like all those crazy like, Middle Eastern countries where you can't even bring in sex toys, or places like Russia, where it's illegal to be gay. That's so backwards that so far away. We've never been like that. But actually, really, really recently, we totally were.

23:34

Holly: You can still find people to have conversations with that lived through it. And won't be like that for much longer because that generation is dying out. But at the moment you can still access those people. Which is scary.

23:48

Harley: And I think that it's really important. I think that often especially when things become mainstream, we tend to clean them up. And I think it's really important. I find this especially around because I grew up because my grandmother was as much an activist as she was just a woman who happened to love another woman. I grew up around drag queens and queer events, and all that kind of stuff. And I very much see, I mean, even if you watch early seasons, and RuPaul’s Drag Race versus modern seasons of it, you see the cleaning up of drag culture over that where it's like, it used to be something that and not all cleaning up is bad. Like I mean, there was a lot of sexual abuse and cultural appropriation and stigmatism that was dangerous for people's lives and things like that. That was like it needed to be cleaned up. But it's also important to remember that I mean, a lot of the people who participated in things like the Stonewall riots, a lot of the people who paved the way for trans people to be seen and heard and treated with respect granted, not by all members of society, but increasingly by more and more of society. Often, I mean, especially for trans people, or for people who were drag queens and things like that they had no choice but to be sex workers, they had no choice and not, I am a high-class escort and look at me, I'm so fancy, I'm getting designer stuff. More like street walking, which is inherently incredibly dangerous. And it is dangerous on another level, because I mean, sex workers are still considered an easy target for a lot of like serial killers or assaults or things like that. And when you combine, being a sex worker with being other again, in some kind of way, whether that's being trans or gay, or whatever other things like, you know, there's so many different avenues you can go down. It's another layer of being invisible and not being safe, because society and the systems that are supposed to keep us safe, like the police and all that kind of thing, are not actually invested in keeping us safe.

25:49

Holly: No, and especially with like the AIDS epidemic, where gay men were literally just left to die, rather than be treated.

25:56

Harley: Because then there are even other gay men wouldn't often have anything to do with them.

26:00

Holly: Ostracized, you know.

26:05

Harley: Part of the reason why the AIDS epidemic became such a thing is because it was dismissed as a gay thing. And so, it was not taken seriously, because they were like, Oh, well serves you right for being gay. Instead of going, This is an STD and it needs to be treated as one. And everybody can suffer from this. And frankly, even if you do have it, because you're gay, so what? You're still somebody who has is suffering a disease and has every right to be treated like a human. I don't know. I just I think it's really, I mean, it's not particularly addressed in these books, because it's not what those books are about. But it's really important to understand the social context of the time periods in which these books are written, especially for The Seven Husbands of Evelyn Hugo, where it is more central to the overall story. It's really, really important to understand why the decisions were being made in context and the society that they were being made in because it is not like a celebrity today and like I mentioned earlier, that people still talk about having like celebrities having beards, like I know Taylor Swift is often accused of covering for gay men and or covering her own sexuality and things like that. And secretly having girlfriends and all that stuff whether she does or doesn't, Taylor Swift and who she has as a beard has absolutely no relevance to my life. But there is still you know, blind items about those celebrity marriages especially.

27:30

Holly: Well and was it Rebel Wilson who was recently, they threatened to out her? I can’t remember which channel it was, but it was maybe Channel 7. I apologize to Channel 7 if it wasn't Channel 7, but there was a news outlet that basically got evidence that I think it was, Wilson was gay and had a female partner, whatever. And they reached out to her and basically said, we're running this piece on whatever date you've got 48 hours to either make a statement to give us a statement or something. And she said Fuck ya. And she outed herself before they could and then they got shitty with her because she ruined the story for them. But how in 2022 is that still happening?

28:14

Harley: It happened not too long ago, actually, with what's her name. Anyway, long story short, she has been like a YouTuber forever. She's like one of the major makeup gurus, this Dutch girl, or Dutch woman. And she had to come out with a video maybe a year or two ago, where she essentially had to admit that she was trans. So, she'd been born male and transitioned. I mean, there was some of the transition. If you go back and see early videos, you're like, Okay, I can see what was happening there. But she always identified as a woman on her channel, and nobody had any reason to question it. And I mean, I certainly, it's often one of those things. Actually, I find that people will go on to be like, Oh, do you think they're gay? Or like, What read are you getting? And I'm like, To be perfectly honest, I didn't think about it. Like, I just it's not that I don't have any data. It's just that I don't look at everybody and go, Who are you trying to fuck? Unless I'm working. In which case I'm literally just like, are you interested in me? Are you needing to get out of my way? Yeah. NikkieTutorials that's it.

29:14

Holly: Nikkie de Jager.

29:17

Harley: De Jager I believe that?

29:19

Holly: Oh, yeah. Cuz Dutch. I mean, I can sort of see from her facial structure that you could kind of make those claims but she's…

29:31

Harley: Also, an associate somebody who's always like very upfront about like, you know, heavier coverage looks and all that kind of stuff. So yeah, there is that touch of like, drag there, but it's also just that theatrical makeup. Where, to be fair, I've never obsessively watched her. But I just like, I have watched a video or two where I'm like, yeah, no, I like I love that theatrical kind of thing. I'm getting too old for it. Yeah, everything settles into the creases.

29:55

Holly: But all you need to know is that she's absolutely gorgeous. Yeah, she's hot as hell and she can do makeup really fucking well. Oh my god is out here without makeup?

30:04

Harley: Yeah so, she’s an incredibly talented makeup artist and at the end of the day, what genitals she was born with have absolutely no relevance to her skill with makeup or anything that she's done in her career. And she's got a new fan now in Holly.

30:27

Holly: She’s hot, it’s just hard to have creases. I will watch and admire. I will not try.

30:32

Harley: I mean, the fact that she had to come out and share that part of herself with the YouTube audience because somebody wanted to out her and somebody was trying to blackmail her with this. There still is that kind of stuff existing. I get where celebrities are, like, you know, especially if you are in a sphere like say country music, where often it's still quite Christian. So, people do still have quite archaic views, it can be a case of look, maybe it's not illegal. And maybe I won't be put in jail or have to deal with the lynch mob for this. But I also can take my career overnight by admitting to it. So, I don't want to admit it.

31:11

Holly: Yeah. And this is why Evelyn went to such great lengths to hide her relationship with Celia why she married me why she had been in relationships where she had all of these little lovely four-way arrangements going on. Because she wanted to keep the fame and she wanted to keep the fortune and she didn't want to be, you know, ostracized.

31:35

Harley: I do think it goes beyond that. Because I mean, at the time period, and she does mention it at one point, I think when she's convincing Celia to let her run off with me, or actually, possibly after when Celia is upset about it, but she's like, I'll put us in an asylum. And this was the reality is the guy who put in prison and gay women were put in asylums and forced to submit to things like electroshock therapy and incredibly inhumane treatment, because let's be honest, psychiatry is still playing catch up, especially for women. So, when they weren't even trying to catch up, good lord.

32:08

Holly: They were used as test subjects.

32:10

Harley: Or just the like, you know what will fix this in Celia and Evelyn’s situation, a good old-fashioned lobotomy. And then they'll either be brain-dead or not a problem. And so, it's not just that, I think these days, it is fear of losing your career or fear of losing your social standing or not being ready to, for multiple reasons, come to terms with who you are as a person, which is something that you can face, regardless of your sexuality, or gender identity or any of that stuff. But at that time period, where these things were said, you weren't just ruining your life in terms of ruining your career or having your family not speak to you anymore, or any of that kind of stuff, which is absolutely still relevant, still valid, you just had that additional thing of the like, we will be committed to spending the rest of our lives being treated incredibly inhumanely. And in some ways. I think being dubbed crazy is worse, because how do you convince someone you're not crazy?

33:11

Holly: Yeah, it's very difficult. And then once you know Evelyn had Connor, her daughter, there was that whole other level as well, what would happen there they arrest Harry, institutionalize Evelyn, and then Connor would just end up in foster care or some sort of system.

33:30

Harley: Assuming they didn't just jump the gun and put her in an asylum as well, because she would have spent her whole life being like, We've got to watch out for any of that deviance you come from two deviant people. So yeah, it's like, you know, I think that there's a lot of layers to that wanting to and I really do think that that a silencing becomes important when you look at how, like, you look at the marriage to make and how Celia is like, You did it to protect yourself. And she's like, No, I did protect you. And I think that they're both right. But I do think that it's not necessarily like, because she let stuff go with Celia a lot, it's not necessarily really addressed that she, like Celia doesn't fully understand, I think the consequences.

34:11

Holly: I think in that situation, Celia was being a little naive. I think everyone could have explained it a little bit more. But I think Celia kind of weaponized her naivety in that scenario. And I know that it was a very sore point for her the fact that everyone had been with men and do love men as well as women. But yeah, I mean, Celia was a very complicated character.

34:41

Harley: I mean, this is what makes the book so good is that she writes humans and the reality is, like, I've met people who have grown up in such a bubble, that they've got no concept of things going wrong in a way that I'm so conscious of things going wrong, because I did not have the luxury of that bubble. I was aware from a very young age—for different reasons, it's not like I  had a dad who beat the shit out of me or was trying anything or any of that kind of stuff. But I grew up very conscious from a very early age of the rough edges of the world and you can't unsee that. And I like that part of the problem in their relationship is that Evelyn is the kind of person who will never not see the rocks at the bottom of the cliff. And Celia will never not see that it looks like a good cliff to jump off of, like, It looks fun. And Evelyn’s like, Do you know how many rocks there are under the surface? You could die. And so, they kind of throw themselves into life based on that.

35:35

Holly: Yeah, I think that comes from their upbringing as well. Celia had a very sheltered life, came from money, whereas Evelyn didn't. And she quickly learned that a marriage or a sham marriage fixes everything. And so, she had six of them. Well, I mean, the marriage to Harry, I guess it was part of the sham. Oh, Don wasn't a sham. So, six shams. And then one…? I mean, she did kind of sort of marry Celia in a little bedroom pillow wedding that they had, which was a bit cute.

36:15

Harley: I think honestly, all of it comes down to I could talk for weeks and weeks and weeks about how much I love these books. But I do think it comes down to she writes really human characters.

36:23

Holly: She does. And then perhaps we do that one, and we do the other one that's already been released. Another double feature.

36:31

Harley: I’m down. I can't remember the name of it. But she's literally advertised as the author of the other one, and I can't remember it. Daisy Jones and the Six. Actually, something I did want to talk about with Nina was because I think we've talked a lot about how, I mean, obviously, we've talked a lot about how we both advocate for gay rights, and for people having that kind of thing, which is not necessarily directly relevant to us, but relevant, because you know, we're humans, who have empathy and compassion for other people, and also are perfectly aware that who you are fucking is not my business. But I think also, we've talked a lot about Evelyn, in terms of celebrity in terms of kind of how we kind of connect to these characters, because we may not be celebrities, but we are professional, beautiful people, and we kind of get that charisma thing and we get that persona thing. I think it's really, really worth talking about Nina from the I mean, we're both firstborn daughters, and we both kind of perhaps have overdeveloped sense of responsibility. And how do I put this nicely? Crazy? In the same way that Nina is crazy. But also, completely different. I'm actually going to look it up if you want to talk about how you feel about Nina for a second.

37:44

Holly: I have lots of feelings for Nina. Yeah, I do. I love her. I think she, in a lot of ways also sort of reminds me of—what’s the character's name from Shameless? Fiona Gallagher.

38:01

Harley: She reminds you of Fiona Gallagher?

38:04

Holly: Yeah, so Nina, and a lot of ways I think reminds me of Fiona Gallagher, from Shameless in the same way that she is the eldest sibling, both sets of families have more or less been abandoned by one parent, and then the second parent, although with Shameless, he does come back and forth a little bit. And then once these eldest siblings kind of realize that the younger siblings are going to be okay, without them, they get this sense of freedom, and they're able to actually leave and start their legitimate life.

38:43

Harley: Yeah. So, this is the quote, sorry, I'm not commenting beyond that, because I've not seen Shameless. So, I agree with the bit about Malibu Rising. But beyond that, it's your opinion, you’re entitled to it, you sound like you're correct, but I'm not going to comment. So, the quote that I found really, like, I highlighted it, literally, for myself, was: “Too much self-sufficiency was sort of mean to the people who loved you, Kit thought. You robbed them of how good it feels to give, of their sense of value.” And I know, this is something that like, I like doing stuff for other people, but I am self-sufficient to a fault where it's very, very hard. And I'm making a conscious effort, increasingly, to allow people to help, allow people in to see that I may, in fact, not be a robot with no human feelings. And I like that quote really resonated with me because it means that like, you know, I really appreciate, so often people will be like, Thank you so much. I can't believe you've done all this stuff for me. And I'm like, No, I get value out of it as well. And we mean it. And yet I when the roles are reversed, I'm like, What do you get out of me being a neurotic mess? Like, No, no, I'll just take care of it. It's fine.

39:48

Holly: Which kind of comes from a few different places. I think part of it is that you're comfortable to do those things for yourself without letting anyone else do it. Because you're sort of afraid of that failure for them letting you down. And so, you're happy to just go ahead and do it rather than ask for help, because you don't want to be let down again, but also the consequence.

40:11

Harley: I think this is really relevant for Malibu Rising is, so Nina never asks Mick for help, she never reaches out to him for money, she never reaches out to him to sign stuff or to be a parent or any of that kind of stuff. Because the consequences of him saying no, are worse than the consequences of never asking. So never asking, they’re poor and she's got to work out how to make all this stuff happen. And she's got to drop out of school. And she's got to show her ass on magazine covers in order to make money. But the consequence of not doing it in that situation is that everybody, it kind of comes to light that he's not there, and the younger sister is taken away from them. And then by the time she's 18, and it doesn't matter because she can adopt them, or she has adopted them at one point. It's kind of past the point of really, like she's already locked into that self-sufficient thing by that stage. So yeah, she never asked him for anything.

41:09

Holly: And that's it. So, they went to petition the courts on her 18th birthday. And then a few weeks later, it's all approved and everything. And we don't actually know if it's approved, because he said yes, or if he just didn't respond. And I think that's very much true to his character. And I sort of like that we don't know what happens there. And I think the other kind of place that that behavior comes from, is being forced to be resilient. At a young age, when you're forced to be resilient, you want to protect other people from having to feel that. And that's why you would do everything for them why she was so protective of kit because she had to be everything from such a young age, she had to parent her, her siblings, and she also had to keep her mother in check. You know, there was a scene where the mother almost dropped the lit cigarette on Kit. And we see you know, the mother dying, because she was there, or the kids were out of the house. So, she drank all the vodka. So, she had the tequila that was in the house, and she had a bath. And then, she just never woke up.

42:15

Harley: And I think it's also that thing of the work when there is legitimately no one else. So, you kind of develop those self-sufficient traits. Because your work legitimately. Who else is that? Like? I mean, the reality of my life now is like, when I have had the flu in the past year, no ones coming to make me soup and look after me

42:34

Holly: like that. I 100%. Would if you asked, that you would not just like I wouldn’t.

42:39

Harley: But I mean, it's only really kind of recently in my life that I've built in enough people that I can go Yeah, actually, I could ask for that. Because for a long part of my life, even when I did have like, even when I was living with my mom, and all that kind of stuff. I mean, I had bad tonsillitis, like I had it so bad, they just gave me the shot because I couldn't even swallow water at that stage. If I lay down, I couldn't breathe properly. I mean, it's also inherited because my mom also was on her own from 15. So, there was no one for her. So, it is a family story.

43:10

Holly: Just as these stories are.

43:13

Harley: Well, actually, that was the other highlight. I realized when I went through this, our family histories are simply stories. They are myths we create about the people who came before us in order to make sense of ourselves. And I think that's also a really profound kind of sentence. Where, yeah, like, there's stories that we inherit through multiple generations of our family, there's traumas that we inherit through multiple generations of our family, and so much of who we are, is tied back into our family. And I mean, even though I know you and I have had the conversation, where it's like, do I have a personality? Or do I just have ADHD and firstborn daughter syndrome? With a weird bit of parentification and trauma thrown in. Because every time we think it's a personality trait, it turns out, I have not yet defined the personality trait that isn't directly related to, even like empathy. People with ADHD and autism often score really highly on empathy. I can't just be like, I'm an empathetic person be like, no, no, that's just a symptom.

44:11

Holly: I like books. Is that a hyper-fixation?

44:16

Harley: Do they give you dopamine? Oh, yeah, they do. Yeah, that's just your brain pressing the dopamine button.

44:23

Holly: Anyway, back to the book.

44:27

Harley: Less about us and how fucked up we are. But, you know, I think that that was one of the things that was really kind of cool about Malibu Rising was that like, those stories that get told and also the kind of juxtaposition of the things that we take from the family, like the learned behaviors, but also the things that stick in place or the things that happen because people aren't there and arguably met created the same system that he had with his dad, by trying to not be his dad.

44:52

Holly: Whereas Hudson is making a conscious effort to break that. Yeah. Which I think is very on point I think all a lot of Gen Xers and millennials in particular are working to break those generational habits and move forward and build children who are prepared for the world. And who can take down these institutions from the inside. The world is going to be a very different, different place.

45:21

Harley: I can’t wait to be an old woman who's like I'm crotchety? Because I can't keep up with the world because I look forward to seeing what world it is. But I can't keep up with and I'm really hoping it's not the metaverse.

45:30

Holly: It's probably going to be the metaverse.

45:33

Harley: But come on, kids, do better. I have faith in you. All right. Well, final thoughts on Malibu Rising?

45:41

Holly: Oh, I don't know. I loved it. I really loved it. I read it in like, more or less one sitting or as much as I could in lockdown. Last year, I really, really felt a lot. For Nina in particular.

45:59

Harley: I think that be summed up by the fact that I read the book almost in one sitting and then immediately messaged you and was like, Thank you so much for recommending that, like, I'm so glad we decided to do the double feature, because I knew that I loved The Seven Husbands of Evelyn Hugo, but I hadn't paid that much attention to Taylor Jenkins Reid as an author. So, I don't know that I would have gotten to Malibu Rising anytime soon. And I'm really glad to have read it. I think that it's gonna go on my list of books that I'm like, I wish I could read that for the first time.

46:32

Holly: Which is a very different message to what I sent you when I finished The Seven Husbands of Evelyn Hugo. Yeah, I believe it was all bold: Fuck you for not warning me about that twist.

46:46

Harley: So, we changed our minds about that, we decided to not cover the twist, not because we don't think it's really powerful and profound and dominant, but because it is so powerful and profound that it deserves to be kind of kept secret and kept off.

46:58

Holly: So, I will say one thing about the ending of Seven Husbands, once you hit that twist in, trust me, you know which twist it is. It's just a rollercoaster ride until the end. So, I even before the last few chapters, if you can block out a period of time and sit down and not have to do anything, be able to just power through that sort of last quarter, maybe last third of the book in one sitting. And then, had time to process it after she's done a really beautiful scene where you're hit with event, tiny bit of recovery event, tiny bit of recovery event. And so, you are just so raw, there's no very little recovery in between them. It just leaves you really gets out of your skin.

47:52

Harley: I'd also say it's one of those twists that you absolutely don't see coming, but it makes perfect sense.

47:57

Holly: Absolutely makes perfect sense. It is probably one of my favorites I would say my one my favorite twist that I've come across in a book. I absolutely love those books by Usain Bolt down. You just want to go Oh my god, no.

48:09

Harley: Like I very much know that when I first read it. My thought process was like, completely blindsided. But also, of course, it always had to be like this always had to be.

48:22

Holly: It makes sense.

48:24

Harley: This is so predictable, like, it's so obvious, it should have been predictable, but it never even occurred to me to think it.

48:32

Holly: But this is what I was saying earlier about the breadcrumbs, you're left breadcrumbs leading you towards a different twist, and that twist still happens, but this one bit shocks you.

48:44

Harley: On a reread, you are given breadcrumbs to it—you're just given breadcrumbs in a way that she does like that real life and that casual kind of thing. You don't even realize that they're irrelevant. So, you know, you're like, of course, I saw breadcrumbs. I walked past 12 different bread bakeries. The important part is the breadcrumbs that were on the walk that I was going on, like, you know what I mean? Which is why because those little crumbs that you don't realize the crumbs are there, because you focused on the ones that you can actually see. Like, that's clearly a breadcrumb.

49:15

Holly: You just think it's Monique's backstory.

49:19

Harley: Yeah, and everything just falls into place in that way but like I think that's part of what makes it really work because you are like, obviously, but also what the fuck, like, Oh my God, of course, but oh my god. Yeah, I think that that's just honestly it hurt. Her technical ability is just beyond, it's a sucker punch.

49:45

Holly: But to nail that sucker punch and craftily piling on the raw, like, breaking down your defenses and already putting you into that kind of emotional like you've you're so invested in these characters. You've been hurt by them, and then to lay on that final blow.

50:00

Harley: But I also think that layer of like to be able to write because, the reality of fiction versus reality is much harder to pull something off in fiction than it is in real life because you have to have a layer of like believability or a layer of setup in fiction that real life doesn't always have. Sometimes she just comes out of the blue, there were no breadcrumbs, there was no smoking gun and the shit just happened. You can't do that in a story. So, the way that she's managed to leave those little bits where it does feel inevitable and obvious, but also was completely out of nowhere, is just such a level of technical skill because most writers, even most really good writers, would have telegraphed that their breadcrumbs would have telegraphed it. And she didn't telegraph it for a second.

50:46

Holly: I think even the fact that the blurb had no mention of Celia. I know, like, across the internet and everything. So, I actively avoided because I knew it was on my to-read list, I actually avoided reading anything, watching anything, any reviews, nothing, I just skipped straight past them. So, it wasn't until she began to answer the question, Who is the lover? Or who was the love of your life? That I had any clue that it was going to be a woman. I had no idea there was this homosexualness to this.

51:19

Harley: That's also a question that comes up really naturally. Because of course, you know, there's this woman with seven husbands, it's fairly natural. And I think we see it in real life in Liz Taylor and things like that. It's really natural to go okay, but if you've married all these men, which one were you really in love with? And that's where the question starts. You've got seven husbands, who did you really love? And I mean, initial twist of the book is that she did have one true love, and it wasn't any of them.

51:43

Holly: Yeah, which I think is such a cheeky play on the name.

51:48

Harley: But I mean, it goes to show too, how much it especially existing at that time, regardless of her sexuality, and where in the spectrum, she sits, and all that kind of stuff. Her life was defined by the men that marked these different points in her life. So even though her life is not really for them, they're the ones that made those kind of marking points. So, Nina is, and this is arguably still true on Hollywood, the whole casting couch thing and all that stuff is that it's men making decisions for women's lives regardless of because it's obviously it's a very different thing to, and Harry's probably the exception to this. But it's a very different thing to like an actual healthy relationship where if you're married for however many, like 40 years, if you're in a defacto relationship for 40 years, there's a man who's going to impact the way that your life has progressed. But it's not because he has a dick, it's because he's your life partner. Whereas the like all the other ones the like the sham marriages, and the hot producers and all that kind of stuff. A lot of the time they are defining points in her life, or they're controlling points in her life, despite the fact that they're not that they have no right to really, but they just have a presumed right because of their penis.

53:02

Holly: It is a book about decisions that were made for her by men.

53:09

Harley: And navigating a world where her role is to cater to men, even if that's not in alignment with who she truly is as a person, which again, circles back around to one of the reasons why I liked it so much is because I really related to her as a professional hot girl, and also possess her fantastic titties and no ass. I'm not even remotely Cuban, so there’s that.

53:38

Holly: Which is a whole other layer that we didn't even discuss is the repressing of her culture and her family.

53:46

Harley: She replaces it so thoroughly that it's almost not relevant even though it is because it obviously impacts her. And I mean, it plays into when you're used to repressing parts of yourself to be more palatable. Changing what part of yourself you're repressing is really not as hard as learning to not repress things.

54:05

Holly: But yeah, we don't ever really see it, except from when her…

54:08

Harley: When she’s eavesdropping on the maid and it's like, I understand you.

54:11

Holly: Yeah. And then when she speaks Spanish at the end once they've moved to Spain.

54:17

Harley: I think that's another really good point that we probably didn't touch on is that repressing one part of yourself often leads to repressing other parts of yourself. So it is that like, you know, it was really early on a necessity for her to repress who she really was to get roles because she wasn't getting roles as a Cuban American woman. She was only gonna get roles if she turned into a perfect blonde starlet, with the white girl-sounding name.

54:41

Holly: And she was very young. I mean, she got her dad to sign…

54:46

Harley: She was only 17 when she picked up in Hollywood wasn't cheap. Yeah, maybe it was 15 when she married. And then 17 when she went off into Hollywood. Yeah, so she was like 18 at most by the time she made the decision to repress her culture in order to be successful. And I think it's interesting that Harry's the one that had that frank conversation with her given that he was repressing part of himself as well. Yeah, because he's flat-out said to her. She's like, Why am I not getting these parts, like, I'm good enough to do it, what the hell's going on? And he's like, I hate to break it to you, but they're casting white girls in these roles. So, until you appear to be a white girl, you're not going to get the role. And of course, she then represses that part of herself. And there’s another scene where it's like, Celia has never had to repress that part of her. So, she changed her name for the fun of it all, and to be a character, but she never had to. She was always just that naturally beautiful white girl,

55:50

Holly: who was able to have acting lessons and who was poached. Yeah, sure, are privileged.

55:55

Harley: She also Yeah, like she just never had to repress any part of herself in order to do the thing that she wanted to do. So, I think it's natural for her to go, why should I have to repress something, and it's natural for Evelyn to go? Why would you repress the bits that aren't palatable? Like, how you succeed, you repress everything.

56:15

Holly: I guess that's why, to Celia, it was harder for her to really deny who she was with her, you know, love. And her love for Evelyn, she wanted to be out.

56:27

Harley: I think that's also why it's hard for Evelyn, even when she's at a point where theoretically, it shouldn't matter anymore, when they can afford to go to other countries, and they can afford to live in such a wealthy bubble. But really, they could do whatever they wanted, and be open about it, she still has a lot of that repression, I think, because it's so ingrained into who she is, because she has been learning to repress parts of herself from such a young age, even arguably, before she was famous. She was repressing things in order to like finding ways to navigate her father and his friends starting to find attractive and she's repressing the fact that she's technically too young to run off with this boy, in order to get herself to safety. And so, she's always had this repression.

57:11

Holly: And had to navigate men from such a young age and presenting what society needs to see from her.

57:15

Harley: Yeah, rather than what's actually going on I think it's just a beautifully developed character. And clearly, I have very rambling final thoughts.

57:27

Holly: Yes, we both do.

57:32

Harley: Yeah, I honestly, I'm such a big fan of Taylor Jenkins Reid. I don't even really have words to say how much of a fan I am. I think that she's told beautiful stories like this. It's just a good story. Because that's the thing is often somebody who's a really great technical writer isn't a very good storyteller. So, she's an exceptional storyteller. But then she's also an exceptional writer.

57:54

Holly: And is thorough in her history. And in her research.

58:00

Harley: And those things often get overlooked. So you get a lot of people who are great storytellers, but arguably not very good writers in that technical sense. And I mean, even you could argue someone like Stephen King could potentially fall in that category. I'm not starting a debate on whether or not he's a good writer. I think he is a good writer. But he's not aiming for technical perfection, what he's aiming for, is that really good story. So primarily, he's a really good storyteller. And you can certainly say the same thing actually, about JK Rowling. She has so many plot holes in her books, like from a technical standpoint, problem after problem, but she's such a fantastic storyteller that an entire generation or two fell in love with a world that she created at Hogwarts.

58:43

Holly: If you have seen any plot holes in any of these books, and have bought any of Jenkins Reid’s books, please let us know. I would love to know, but I just don't think there are any.

58:57

Harley: You're like, Oh my god, they're all in this other one. And I was like, Wait, what?

59:01

Holly: Yeah. It was a voice note. Oh, my God. Okay, so of the two, Harley, which one was your favorite?

59:12

Harley: Oh, that's the main question, isn't it? I want to say The Seven Husbands of Evelyn Hugo purely because as brilliant as it was, and as much as I loved it, Malibu Rising did feel like watching a car crash happen in slow motion. So, it was perfectly done as it was it was a little bit painful, like in the best possible way and it shouldn't not be that, but it also was like this isn’t fun to watch. And I didn't find that so much with The Seven Husbands of Evelyn Hugo, because that crash moment. Literally. It didn't happen so much of The Seven Husbands of Evelyn Hugo because that car crash moment was so sudden. So, you weren't seeing you were seeing that kind of like end-of-life thing for her and that reflective thing but that's not inherently a car crash. You know what I mean? It's just back over what you've done in that. So yeah, the car crash kind of moment was really started—it wasn't this like a slow-motion build-up. All of Malibu Rising was just it's one car crash happening in slow motion. And it's a full-lane pile-up. It's not just a little thing.

1:00:21

Holly: No, someone's driven off the Westgate.

1:00:23

Harley: Yeah. What about you? What was your favorite?

1:00:25

Holly: Yeah, see, I can't really answer it either.

1:00:29

Harley: I've worked out mine.

1:00:31

Holly: No, I will, I will, I will. Okay, so, I love the entire story of Malibu Rising. I loved it from start to finish. Seven Husbands did lose me a little bit in the middle. A smidgy bit. And then the last little bit. I absolutely fell in love with it. And those last few smackdowns just, I think it's the best ending. Yeah, but I think I'm gonna go with Malibu Rising. I'm a little bit more relatable to me. I can see myself a little bit more in Nina that I can Evelyn. And I really loved all of it from start to finish. But I did adore the ending.

1:01:12

Harley: Yeah, it is a half a point between them.

1:01:14

Holly: I agree.

1:01:18

Harley: Because yeah, it's like, as much as I have said all this stuff about Seven Husbands being my favorite because of all of these things, I could say just as many good things about Malibu Rising. I really liked that everybody was human. And I really liked that you spent a lot more time in that kind of real world, I guess, like outside that bubble of celebrity. And yeah, I related to it more. I don't know that I necessarily relate to Nina more than I relate to Evelyn. I think I relate to Evelyn more. But I relate to the story of Malibu Rising more than I relate to the story of Seven Husbands. Almost like I'm not a film star.

1:01:56

Holly:  first, I'm learning about this.

1:01:59

Harley: If they ever make a make the TV or make a movie out of Seven Husbands. I'm just saying I've got the body for it. She was a fake blonde anyway, who gives a shit? I got the tits for it. And I'm not afraid to almost show them on screen.

1:02:14

Holly: Perfect.

1:02:16

Harley: Acting ability questionable.

1:02:18

Holly: But could you do a sex scene with your ex?

1:02:25

Harley: Absolutely. I could. I'm like, I go work mode really easy. I told you I relate to Evelyn. Might be a schootch method on that one, not that I’m sleeping with people or getting married left, right center, but…

1:02:36

Holly: Hey, you never know. That was very rambly episode but thank you for joining us.

1:02:41

Harley: That's what editing is for. I can edit out my pitch to become a Hollywood star. I feel like this like the default pitch. And it's like I actually I mean, to be fair with like, some Hollywood producer called me and was like, We want you for Evelyn that I wouldn't say no, because that is such my life that is like, this is so fucking random. I cannot say no. But it's not something I'm in any way actively pursuing. So around halfway through a pitch when I make like whenever I'm pitching the why am I pitching is I feel like that all the time. All right, thank you for listening.

1:03:15

Holly: The books we referenced will be in the show notes with links and such.

1:03:19

Harley: I think it's almost entirely just going to be a little fangirl list of Taylor Jenkins Reid. If you're Taylor Jenkins Reid, big fans, big fans.

1:03:29

Holly: So, we can do another double feature on you.

1:03:32

Harley: If you've read either of these books or any of her other work and you are interested in us doing another Taylor Jenkins Reid episode, let us know. You probably will.

1:03:42

Holly: Regardless, I'm letting you know now, we are.

1:03:45

Harley: But of course, we can move it up or down the timeline depending on what other people are interested in. Because I flat out said to Holly, I was like, I have to actively work to remember that we have another book to read for next week. And I can't just like hold down a fan go rabbit hole and read everything she's ever written. Actually, need to make some time to read other things.

1:04:05

Holly: Power through the other book this weekend. And then you've got three days.

1:04:09

Harley: Yeah, this is not the week for me to power read. I’ve got shit on every single day.

1:04:15

Holly: Yeah, that's my fault.

1:04:20

Harley: God forbid we go have fun and have a laugh

1:04:24

Holly: On your birthday!

1:04:26

Harley: Well, I loved them.

1:04:28

Holly: Yep. Love Malibu Rising, wasn't until I read Seven Husbands that I realized I loved the author. I think I will be devouring, or we both will be devouring her entire works.

1:04:41

Harley: I think I had the exact same experience just in reverse. Yeah. So, thank you TikTok and YouTube for blowing up Seven Husbands thing because that was appearing in my feed nonstop and that's why I read it.

1:04:52

Holly: And thank you Readings for actually having the authors grouped together. So, I could see it together.

1:04:59

Harley: We're not sponsored by TikTok, YouTube or Readings but if you're Readings, hit us up, I mean, if you’re TikTok, or YouTube also hit us up.

1:05:08

Holly: I feel like readings will give a shit first. And that is our pitch.

1:05:16

Harley: I'm just pitching things left, right, and center. All right, thanks, guys. We really appreciate you listening if you've made it this far you’re a legend and if you've made it this far and you haven't read anything by Taylor Jenkins Reid, you’re an insane legend. We'll catch you next time.