Where the Crawdads Sing Transcript

© Bimbo Media

00:03

Holly: This is Bimbo Book Club with Holly.

00:12

Harley: And Harley. Hello friends and welcome to another episode of Bimbo Book Club.

00:19

Holly: Welcome, welcome.

00:20

Harley: How are you doing today, Holly?

00:21

Holly: I'm doing all right how are you doing?

00:23

Harley: You know, trucking along. Nothing to complain about in the last hour, at least. And I don't remember any further back than that.

00:29

Holly: So, I can think of something to complain about in the last hour. Peanut just spilled my coffee everywhere.

00:35

Harley: Yeah, well, that's uneventful in my line of existing. There wasn't much left though, was there?

00:41

Holly: No there wasn't much left.

00:42

Harley: You say that like you’re missing out on coffee.

00:44

Holly: No, it was cold. I just feel bad about your carpet.

00:47

Harley: I'm used to it. You saw how quickly I was like, I've got 14 different cleaning supplies.

00:51

Holly: Yeah, and half of them were empty.

00:54

Harley: Guess why.

00:56

Holly: Anyway, yeah. So today we are talking about Where the Crawdad Sings by–

00:5

Harley: It’s Where the Crawdads Sing isn't it?

00:56

Holly: Dammit, I always get this wrong.

01:06

Harley: There’s one crawdad singing away

01:09

Holly: There’s only one crawdad and it’s singing many songs. Because I either say crawdad sings or crawdads sing.

01:17

Harley: Yes, many crawdads one sing

01:19

Holly: Crawdad is a bird right?

01:23

Harley: Actually, got no idea. What is a crawdad? I thought it was like a crustacean or something, but I’m probably wrong. I'm thinking like crawfish. But I feel like that is…

01:35

Holly: Surely, it's like a seagull.

01:37

Harley: It's a bird, is a crawdad a bird. Oh, no! Crayfish or crawdads are crustaceans that live in freshwater environments throughout the world except for India and Antarctica.

01:43

Holly: But can they sing? How do we find out if they sing? Surely that’s a Googleable thing? Oh, that's not what I expected.

01:49

Harley: Yeah, it's like a blue lobster.

01:51

Holly: It's blue lobster. Probably more like a yabby than a lobster actually.

01:55

Harley: Yeah, literally a crayfish also known as yabby in Australia. Crawdads are known by various common names and come in a wide variety of sizes and colors. Wait, can yabbies sing?  

02:10

Holly: Was this just some sort of obscure reference for something that we missed out on?

02:16

Harley: This is literally from Where the Crawdads Sing on Wikipedia. So, they can't sing. And the phrase ‘go way out yonder where the crawdads sing’ just means as far in the bush where critters are wild are still behaving like critters. So, it basically means go so far out in the bush that -

02:31

Holly: Ohhhh right, so Kya lives where the crawdads sing, because she's like a wild, anyway! Back to our intro! Today we're doing Where the Crawdads Sing.

02:40

Harley: Oh no, we’re leaving that in! Nice try, trying to get it out. So, for any Australian out there, crawdad is not a bird. It's a yabby.

02:50

Holly: Why did I think it was a bird?

02:52

Harley: Because most of her drawings and conversations and things like that are with the birds.

02:56

Holly: I would have put money on it that it was like a seagull.

03:00

Harley: See, I think because they talk about it in the book. I think that's where I got the like crustacean thing from but then as soon as you said it with enough authority, I was like, I must be wrong.

03:09

Holly: Moral of the story, say anything with confidence, people will think you are correct.

03:14

Harley: Or at least some people who are prone to questioning their own judgment even when they're actually correct.

03:18

Holly: Yes. It's one of the few things that my dad taught me. If you don't know something, make it up with confidence. And I feel like that's how he's gotten so far in life and is possibly how I've gotten so far in life.

03:34

Harley: Freely admitting that I've got no fucking clue seems to be doing alright for me, but certainly not as well as you and your dad. So maybe I should stop admitting when I've got no fucking clue when I need to ask the question and start just being like, Yes, I know things.

03:47

Holly: Yes. Don't Google it. You don't need to.

03:49

Harley: You'd be surprised how often I'm like, I've got no idea. I'll Google it. I Google it and then go Okay, so the answer is ‘a crawdad is a yabby. It's a crustacean’ and people go Wow, you're so smart! And I'm like, I literally googled it in front of you. You literally watched me go and find the information.

04:04

Holly: All I have done is prove that I know how to use Google.

04:07

Harley: Yep. Like I didn't know the answer to this until that, and this is information that is just as accessible to you. You're holding the same device in your hand that I used to look this up. People are like yes, but you actually looked it up. So, wow smart. Is this the takeaway? I don't know that it is but all right, sure. Let's go with that. Anyway, now that we've established what a crawdad is, we are doing Where the Crawdads Sing by Delia Owens, which has like massively taken off as it's I think it was Reese Witherspoon did it? It was her book club. And she's got a really smart system set up where she has an, I want to say publishing company. What is it for films? Production company, she has a production company. Holly and I are having a great time with words today. Such a great time. Apparently, I can't remember who's who.

04:58

Holly: If I have to be Harley, does that mean I get the great tits too?

05:03

Harley: You already have great tits.

05:04

Holly: Yeah, but yours are greater, in volume.

05:06

Harley: Definitely greater in volume, greater pains in my ass too. Yeah, so Reese Witherspoon has a book club. And then she has a production company. So often the books that she skyrockets to fame, because she's basically the new Oprah's book club where anything she recommends suddenly gets massive. She often will recommend books after she's already signed the contract to have them as a production company thing. So, she's basically guaranteed movie rights when they've got a big enough audience because she's put it in front of most people's faces. She's got the production, rights.

05:40

Holly: Yeah, it's a really beautiful turn key operation, she's a smart cookie, that one. All she has to do is read a book and identify that it has movie potential, and then utilize the platform she already has.

05:51

Harley: And it's an everybody wins the thing, because it's easy to be like, Oh, well, then she is scamming people, but at the end of the day.

05:56

Holly: She’s not scamming anybody.

05:59

Harley: Yeah, but you know what people like, like, especially a woman who comes up with a savvy idea like that. They're like, the audacity?

06:04

Holly: But it's like she's hiding it.

06:07

Harley: But it's also one of those things where if it's a crappy book, it won't take off, no matter how many noses as you put it in front of because people will try it and go, this is awful. And then she'll lose credibility for future stuff. So, it's in her best interest to recommend good books with good potential. But also, it then means for the author, there are plenty of authors out there who would never have access to that level of exposure, that suddenly have book and movie deals and massive audiences and a name that, like name recognition that they can use to have even better deals for their next book or the book after that, or you know, so on and so forth. So, I think it's very, very clever on her part. And I think when I say that, I certainly say it with nothing but respect.

06:47

Holly: So recently, this was released as a film. We have seen the film, we have feelings about the film. We have feelings about the book. We have feelings about a lot of things. We just have feelings. In general. There are some we shut down. There are some we share on the internet.

07:02

Harley: I didn't say we weren't keeping them all in a box. very tightly locked box, but we have them. Anyway. So, the book is by Delia Owens. And she is pretty interested in her room. So, before we get into Crawdads itself, do you want to talk a little bit about Delia?

07:19

Holly: So, Delia Owens and her husband Mark, and then her stepson whose Mark’s son, Christopher are all reportedly still wanted by Zambian authorities in regards to the murder of an alleged poacher in 1995. So, the murder of the alleged poacher was televised in a 1996, ABC Turning Point doco titled Deadly Game: The Mark and Delia Owens story. So, the doco traces the conservation efforts of the Owens couple, who have also written a couple of nonfiction books about their time as American conservationists in Africa and Botswana, battling - which is their word, not mine - poachers. The murder is actually featured in this ABC doco the cameraman shows the alleged poacher laying on the ground already shot. And then we see him being fatally shot again by someone off-camera. They just like straight up asked the camera guy who it was, and he said it was the stepson Christopher who shot the poacher, but the fam has stuck to their story that they don't know anything. They weren't there. They have no clue what happened. But then they obviously like legged it out of the country.

08:18

Harley: My understanding was there were some other controversies as well about them treating poachers quite badly or allowing mistreatment of poachers on their land.

08:27

Holly: Yeah so, there were a few other instances of Mark throwing firecrackers and things.

08:32

Harley: And having them tied to trees in the sun. And obviously, they've denied all of this, like nobody's going to turn around and be like, Yes, yes, I have routinely condoned and participated in the torture and mistreatment of other human beings. Yeah, I only believe animals deserve good treatment.

08:46

Holly: So, there's no statute of limitation on murder in Zambia. So, they’re still wanted for questioning even though it's been nearly 30 years. Oh, we're old. So particularly towards the like, release date of the movie, there were a lot of people coming out and saying that, like Where the Crawdads Sing is sort of like a confession, because there is a murder that happens in this movie, book, all the above. But personally, I think that's a bit of a stretch.

09:15

Harley: I do. I think a lot of the perceived similarity comes from the justification of the murder. So, the murder in the book is justified, at least to the characters. I mean, obviously you can then go into a moral argument about is murder ever justified and this that the other and but to the characters in the book, it's justified. And that's one of the kinds of moments of conflict is the like, one did she do it? And two, if she did, so what?

09:40

Holly: Yeah, so the book kind of focuses around this murder, and it happens sort of in two time periods. So, one is her growing up. Kya, our main character, growing up in the marshland as the marsh girl, and then watching as her family deserts her and whatnot. And then the other time period is the courtroom as this court case is playing out. While she's being trialed for murder.

10:01

Harley: It kind of runs forward and backward into the like, key point of the novel, which is the murder.

10:05

Holly: Which is the murder. I think that's done quite well.

10:09

Harley: I mean, it's brilliantly done. I actually have to say, regardless of her questionable character as a human, as a writer she's pretty fantastic. I think it was a very well-written novel.

10:19

Holly: I think the novel was well-written. I think the background, the descriptions, scene setting was done really, really, well. I think some of the dialogue was a bit flat. We didn't really see a whole lot of character development.

10:34

Harley: Yeah. But I think that not every story, as much as we like to make everything a hero's journey. Not everything is about personal development or character development, and I think she does a very good job of telling a story that like, I mean, the marsh is arguably the main character above and beyond even Kya. She obviously cares very much about nature and that kind of thing. And the way you can tell it's that conservation thing where it's like, I think you can tell that she has that real deep love of nature in its rawest form, its most untouched form because it really does read like a love letter to that wild.

11:11

Holly: And it wasn't quite poetic. The descriptions of some of the animals and the creatures, apparently not the crawdads, though.

11:18

Harley: I think she described it quite well. I think you just tuned out stuff that didn't suit what you thought crawdads were.

11:24

Holly: But yeah, there was no detail that was too small. Like, she included even the way that wings would flutter and it was so poetic.

11:32

Harley: And it’s true to the main character because the main character was also obsessed with that wildness. So, she became a conservationist in a way. Not necessarily in the I went to school and am a scientist kind of way that Delia Owens would have. But, in that, like being a creature of the wild country, and in fact, that was one of my criticisms of the movie versus the book is in the book she's like a wild creature. They describe her in a lot of ways where it's like, I guess she's a wild creature, and that she doesn't know her social etiquette and things like that. But she's also a wild creature in terms of she's often hiding from authorities and things like that. And she disappears into the marshes in the way that like panthers and things disappear into the country. And so, it's that thing of like, you know, what, you are doing something out in the wild and you turn around, and all of a sudden you realize there's like, a deer there, or, like a bear or whatever. I mean, in Australia, it's like a kangaroo or, I don't know, obviously, kangaroos. To be honest when I've turned around and been like, Holy fuck, there's a thing there. Like snakes or goannas.

12:27

Holly: Don’t tell me that.

12:28

Harley: Oh, but it's like… Oh, are you scared of kangaroos?

12:31

Holly: I'm terrified of kangaroos. I am, don’t you know this about me? I am terrified of kangaroos. Okay, I actually have a reason. So, when I was really little, my family went on holiday up in Queensland, we're at the Australia zoo. And there are heaps of kangaroos there. I probably was about three. I think this is my first ever memory that has just solidified in my brain. I turned around and this fucking ginormous kangaroo had reared up on its tail and was going to kick me and my dad punched in the face. So, I think I'm allowed to be afraid of kangaroos.

13:09

Harley: But as a general rule, they won’t be coming near you. Not like, millimeters away. But you'll see in the distance in the bush where it's like, there's grass, I think, because they freeze because they don't want to be seen by you. They want to just live their lives far away from you.

13:26

Holly: That would be great. They could live their lives really far away from me.

13:29

Harley: So, they will freeze. And if you're not paying attention, because they go so still in that way that animals can, if you're not paying attention, you won't notice them. Because they want to be not noticed. They want to just go quietly. But I mean, the same thing can be said for I think all or the majority of wild animals is that like, you know, even things that are predators. Because the thing with a lot of Australian wildlife like kangaroos and koalas and things, is that they're not cuddly. The way that they're sold to tourists is cuddly, but they're not necessarily predators, so they won't hunt you down. Whereas if you look at something like an alligator or crocodile so we have crocodiles in Australia, but also alligators and the general rule they're not like running down the street be like, I'm gonna bite you. So, you'll crocodiles, you're more likely to be chased by a goanna. I'm not saying it won't happen.

14:10

Holly: I don’t want to be scared of goannas too.

14:13

Harley: How are you not already scared of goannas?

14:18

Holly: I just don’t think I've come into contact with one, right? I'm probably not gonna go pick it up and give it a cuddle.

14:24

Harley: I wouldn't, no. Have you ever seen them shoot up–well, you wouldn't have if you've never had contact.

14:28

Holly: No, but I wouldn't naturally run away from them. I don't think.

14:33

Harley: Yeah, I wouldn’t, they’re faster than you. I don’t care how fast you run, they are faster than you.

14:36

Holly: So, I can't outrun them, and I can't outclimb them. What am I meant to do?

14:40

Harley: Just stay the fuck away. Leave them alone, let them do their thing, back off. Back off, but don't back off in a run, back off slowly.

14:47

Holly: So, I am big like is that when you are trying to scare something they fluff themselves up?

14:56

Harley: Goannas will rear up, because that's how they fight each other.

14:58

Holly: Okay, so don't rear up to a goanna.

15:01

Harley: Just don't go near goannas. Let’s not have a bimbos go camping night.

15:07

Holly: I've been camping exactly once.

15:09

Harley: I went camping quite a bit as a kid so lots of people look at me like there's no way you would ever do anything like that's not glamping camping. I'm like, No, I can camp camp.

15:17

Holly: I like showers.

15:18

Harley: Me too, but I can survive without one.

15:20

Holly: I could survive without a shower. But not if there are goannas and fucking kangaroos around.

15:24

Harley: I’ll take goannas and kangaroos over spiders any day.

15:27

Holly: I'll take a spider and put it outside. That's okay. I'm happy to deal with spiders.

15:31

Harley: On the off chance we find a kangaroo in our house, I'll deal with that. For anybody, not Australian, this is not an issue that we are ever going to face.

15:43

Holly: No, we definitely don't ride kangaroos to school. And anyway, back to our book at hand.

15:49

Harley: Yeah. So anyway, the point of this is that the way that she writes, the main character is very much like an animal. And I think that's like, obviously, that's a very hard thing to cast because most humans don't have that kind of stillness that wild animals have. But I think that they failed in a way that is really fundamental to the character of Kaya –no issue with the actor, I think that the actress who played her did a perfectly good job. I just think that it was a character that was written in a way that was difficult to translate to a person.

16:19

Holly: Yeah, so she was written quite skittish, like a feral cat that is scared but curious. Whereas on screen, she kind of came across as meek.

16:29

Harley: And I think not other enough,

16:33

Holly: Yes!, definitely not other enough, which I think is one of the very big topics and themes throughout the novel is the fact that she is other, and she is treated as other particularly throughout this court case.

16:43

Harley: That’s something her lawyers said.

16:44

Holly: Yeah, because she's not like for the most part, no one even refers to her by her name, they call her the marsh girl, which is so othering.

16:54

Harley: And they have a bit of a thing of like the marsh people and not the marsh people. And particularly in her case because both her parents leave. So, her mom leaves, and then her siblings leave, and then her father disappears, probably getting drunk and drowning in the marsh, let's be honest. And nobody comes. So, there is like a truancy officer that comes through. But she goes to school once and then disappears. And basically, nobody in the town recognizes that there is basically this child out in the marsh raising themselves.

17:24

Holly: I'm sorry, like, she's seven, I get that she's resilient and stuff, but in the real world, like she's like, seven when she's, or younger, when she's left alone.

17:33

Harley: I mean, I think people do things like that when they have no choice, but they shouldn't, she shouldn't have been put in that position.

17:42

Holly: So there were a few people throughout the book that were kind to her that helped her out. And one, in particular, is Jumpin’ who is the owner of the essentially, a little convenience store, but like it's floating.

17:56

Harley: Yeah, so it's on the edge of the like river, because it's I mean, even in town, everybody's on kind of the river or the, I think maybe the mouth of the river. So, it's like, it's a boating population. So, it's a corner store. But instead of driving up, you drive your boat up. So like bait and tackle and all that kind of stuff. I think it's really important to note that like Jumpin’ is a, like he's a colored man in a time period where they had the colored village and the white village.

18:22

Holly: And then Kya was still other from even that.

18:27

Harley: The reason why I bring it up is because there's a point in the book where Jumpin’ wants to do more to help her or to let's go to the authorities about this and things like that. And she's like, what would happen if, earlier in the book, one of your people was chased home by some boys who were throwing stones at him and like, almost beat him to death. But you couldn't go to the authorities. Because at the end of the day, it's white people versus black people. And we all know how that's going to end. And I'm the same, like, I might not be othered in the same way. I'm not the same kind of other, but I'm other in the same way. So, like, be real about this, and how this will play out because it doesn't matter what's true and what's not true. And it doesn't matter who's right and who's wrong. What matters is that we are automatically wrong because of who we are as people and there's no point in doing this. And he's very quick to accept that because he recognizes that in that time and place. It's true. Unfortunately, in a lot of places now it's still true.

19:21

Holly: So, Jumpin’ and his wife, Mabel, are the two that really helped Kya as much as they possibly can. So, they provide her with clothes, and she gets a bit of a head start in life.

19:38

Harley: I guess some income to survive.

19:41

Holly: So, she goes out and she starts, I want to say it’s mussels yeah? So, she goes out and she's harvesting mussels and takes them to Jumpin’s store. And he basically says if you're here before my other delivery people, bring them up.

19:58

Harley: I’ll pay for them.

20:00

Holly: I'll buy him a few. Yeah, so he's able to give her some cash for that.

20:05

Harley: I think too, they really recognise from a very early stage in the book, at least, because the characters in the movie are combined with a couple of other characters. So, it kind of loses some of the nuances. But in the book, they very clearly understand that she can only accept so much help. So, if they tried to take her in, or if they tried to do more than she was ready for, she would just disappear on them and not get any help at all, so they help her exactly as far as she's able. It's like the people who are like, we can't take this cat in, even though we need to adopt this cat, take it to the vet, deworm and do all that stuff. It will not let us do that. But we'll leave some food out for it.

20:38

Holly: We really, we definitely see that when Mabel brings a box of clothes for her. And she's like, Oh, no, I can't pay for this. And Mabel’s like, No, this is just old stuff from the church. Like it's gonna go in the bin if you don't take it. And she was like, Oh, well, I guess if it's gonna go in the bin, then I'll take it. It wasn't gonna go in the bin. And Mabel specifically went out and collected these items of clothing for her, including, like, a really pretty dress for her. But she needed to think that it's not charity.

21:04

Harley: And I think very slowly built up that relationship with them that was as close to parental as she could handle. Because obviously, both of them very clearly had a huge soft spot for her. And felt very protective of her, even though she's not a particularly likable character. I do think that's one of the other hard things that are like, in terms of going from book to movie is she's described as very, very beautiful, but she's very skittish and very standoffish, so she's attractive, especially to some of the boys growing up and all that kind of stuff. But her ability to interact with them is minimal, and they kind of have to be careful about it. And she doesn't necessarily understand the social nuances and things like that. And that's where we have. I feel like Tate comes in, because she has no contact with people except for Jumpin’ at that stage.

21:54

Holly: Well, so she'd had contact with Tate first. Her brother Jody, who was the last one to leave her of the family unit, Tate was his friend. Sorry, yes, dad was the last one to leave. So second last one to leave. And there was an incident where she had done something wrong and can't remember exactly what it was. And her father dearest was going to punish her. But this was in front of her brother and Tate and the other children. Tate got in between Kya and her dad, and he smashed Tate right across the face. And then we didn't see Tate for many years.

22:29

Harley: Yeah, so it's like this old friend that they kind of lost touch or that kind of thing. And I think it's really important that from that very early age, that he's in that position of her rescuer or her hero or, from the very start, because it informs how she sees him, not necessarily how he sees himself because I think that's a little bit more nuanced, but certainly how she sees him and why she's a little bit unwilling to, like she gets very upset with him when he breaks that character. Yeah, not that she's not in the right to be upset, you know, but…

22:59

Holly: So, Tate comes back into the picture when either dad is gone for good or has–

23:05

Harley: No, so he first appears when she steals her father's boat when he's gone. He gets drunk and disappears for long, long, like, sometimes days at a time and all that stuff, just leaving her on her own. And it's in one of these that she's like, I could take the boat out for a little bit and like, be free for a little piece of time. And she does and she gets lost, and he discovers her lost. And he's like, Do you need help getting back? And initially, she's like, No, and then she's like, Actually, yes, yeah. So, he leads her back. And then he's like, Okay, well, now that you're here, like, I'll just go. And this is one of the things that kind of informs their relationship is that Tate is good with animals in general. So, he's also a conservationist, but he comes from that, like, he goes to university and he is a part of normal society. He does things the normal way, but he still cares about the marsh and that conservation has that way with animals, including Kya.

23:53

Holly: And the fact that he does want to be part of, loosely using the word normal, but like traditional society, not part of the mash becomes a point of, an issue later.

24:04

Harley: Yeah, because he thinks she can just come and join him at university, not understanding how other she is. But then he also is part of the reason why she finds ways to touch the real world in safe ways for her.

24:15

Holly: Yes, so he recognizes that she's also very interested in learning about the creatures of the marsh.

24:22

Harley: And well, they bond over the creatures of the marsh. So, their first kind of, I don't even want to say flirtation because it's even kind of pre-flirtation, when they're just feeling each other out. They’re leaving presents for each other of like, bird feathers and shells, and little pieces of the marsh and she starts collecting, or we think she's already collecting these. And so, she turns her house basically it’s a little swamp shack. And she turns that into her first kind of scientific collection. And she draws a lot while she's doing it as well.

24:51

Holly: So, while they're leaving each other presents, he leaves her a note, but because she's grown up in the marsh and has been at school for exactly one day, she can't read, and he confronts her like at this point, they just leaving presents, they're not seeing each other. They're just leaving each other the presents. So, he waits by this little log. And then when she comes to leave her present, he confronts her. And she has to confess that she can't read. So, Tate becomes a teacher. So, this, I'd say, is probably mid to early-mid teenagers at this point. They're not children anymore.

25:26

Harley: No, but they'd still like, they're in that thing, where it's like, we're so grown up, but then every adult is looking at them being like, Oh, my God, you're still a child.

25:34

Holly: Yeah. So, Tate manages to teach her how to read, and then starts bringing her more and more biology books.

25:43

Harley: Yeah, so she's really intelligent. She's just not traditionally educated.

25:47

Holly: Yeah, Tate then does get into university and leaves her in the marsh, planning to come back. And you know, they were gonna get a place for themselves and start their lives and do all this. But he was going to finish university first. He comes back, he's on his boat, he sees her on the beach and decides that she is too other to introduce into his world. And so, he essentially abandons her at this point.

26:16

Harley: Yeah, so like the mature young man at university, that he is he avoids dealing with the confrontation and just disappears, leaving her to wait and wait and wait and finally realize that she has been abandoned yet again. Because the right way to deal with conflict is to trigger someone's abandonment.

26:35

Holly: And then in walks, Chase. Destruction, personified.

26:43

Harley: She’s wounded and wanting to feel cared for. So, she's all ready to, she's still a virgin at this stage. She's all ready to commit herself fully to Tate, all that kind of stuff. And then he abandons her and she's like, yet another person that I loved that just walks away and feels fine to just leave me here. And go on with their lives and never kind of come back and whatever. Chase walks in.

27:07

Holly: Yeah, so Chase, if we didn't mention before, is the murder victim.

27:12

Harley: So at this stage when they're still teenagers. He's the star football player of the school and if ever a boy had white wall tires? It would be him. If you've listened to our double-feature episode, he's the slick boy you run from.

27:25

Holly: He is this boy you run from. So, he's managing to live essentially this double life, where he has the proper girlfriend with the now, she had a pearl necklace. Pearl was her name. I'm pretty sure. I remember reading that and being like, why like that is the only real way that she's described.

27:48

Harley: I feel like it's one of those like, potentially, was a just like, I'll just call her Pearl for now. Because like mostly through Kya, Kya calls her Pearl because the pearl necklace. And it's just like, yeah, too lazy to change it. I didn't go back and thought about it. Oh, well, we're here now. So Pearl is not actually important to the story. Except that she is the proper girl.

28:09

Holly: She's the girl that Chases meant to end up with.

28:12

Harley: Introduced to his parents and get married to.

28:16

Holly: She's the one with the rock on her finger.

28:17

Harley: But because Kya is so separate from townsfolk, she is not aware of this.

28:23

Holly: No, she has no clue. And she's falling, I guess for Chase.

28:29

Harley: Well, a version of him that he's presenting. So, it's the like, I have a shiny boat, and I've got lots of resources, and I'll take you for picnics, and we'll do all this nice stuff. And he pushes her boundaries. So, he literally pushes her boundaries and like rapes her at one point.

28:45

Holly: But does he actually rape her? Or did she?

28:48

Harley: Oh, no. Not quite.

28:49

Holly: That's right. I think she gets away.

28:51

Harley: But he also I mean, when they do sleep together, I mean, she, like most young girls of the time, I think, and probably still these days, has this fantasy version of what the first time is going to be like, and he pushes her to come out of town with him and stay in a motel. And so, she loses her virginity in a seedy motel to a guy that has basically taken her out of her comfort zone. So, she's isolated.

29:15

Holly: Look at all these lovely things I've done for you. I've earned it, right? That kind of vibe.

29:20

Harley: So theoretically, she consents to that one, but arguably, in a questionable manner. But I mean, she does at the time think that she is in love with him. And so maybe it's worth it in the long run, and it'll make it real and then there'll be real partners. And I think almost immediately after that, she goes into town ready to say hello to him. And he's like, here's my new wife.

29:40

Holly: Yeah, yeah. So not long after that, there is an altercation on the beach where he does attempt to rape her. She fights him off, and she does fight him off and gets away. She does punch him in the face, she hits him with something, he gets hit, takes us a smack in the face. And it's more the anger and aggression that comes from that that is the issue.

30:09

Harley: So, she, I think doesn't actually sleep in her house that night. So, she like, hides in the woods all night. And she realizes that, because she's so isolated, she will never be safe from him. Because at any point of the day or night, he could come out there and do whatever he wanted to her. And if she doesn't manage to fight him off next time, there's nothing to stop him from assaulting her raping her killing her, any of that stuff. So, it's like, while he's alive. I'm not safe.

30:36

Holly: And he does take this aggression out on the house when he doesn't find her there. He trashes it. And that's her life's work.

30:43

Harley: So, then we go from the future into the past to this point where he's murdered. Oh, sorry, the, when they find him, their first thing is they’re like, Well it has to be Kya. She gets arrested for it, and all that kind of stuff. But she's out of town when it happens. So, she's gone to meet with her publisher. Because in tandem with all of this happening, Tate has pushed her to contact a publisher. And he's, I think he's reached out to her while he's at University. He's like, sent her a letter or something, as he's like, one way of reaching out to say sorry, or whatever. And she's like, I still don't forgive you. But actually, that's not a bad idea. And she does send stuff off to a publisher throughout this time period. So, she's managed to publish at least one work, maybe two. And because she's kind of getting more mature and more able to kind of deal with the world and all that kind of stuff, she goes into the bigger town. So, she goes out of town to meet with her publisher. And that's when he dies.

31:39

Holly: So, she'd been invited to meet this publisher, one town over also. And she had pushed it back. Because he'd also smacked her in the face. So, she had that black eye. And she pushed it back until that was healed enough that she could cover it and go and visit this publisher. Now, the publisher. She would have to get a bus there. The bus only ran very infrequently.

32:03

Harley: Well, essentially, she's got an alibi. She's out of town. And I think it's like one of the things that I really like about this thing is that like, there is that element of who done it, like did she do it? Did she not? Is there a timeframe there for her to do it? But it's actually less about that and more about that thing of other. It seems like on the surface, there's no way she could have done it. Like when you look at the timeline, stuff, there's no way she could have done it. And then it becomes a thing of the like, the town's bias. So, do you believe she did it simply because she's a wild animal? And she's this other thing, or whatever? Or do you believe her story because clearly, nothing adds up?

32:42

Holly: Yeah, so it was all very circumstantial evidence. Like they watched her from like the in-town store window, getting on this bus. And then someone saw someone getting off the bus who maybe could have been her in a wig dressed like an old person or something.

33:00

Harley: And, there was like an old man who got off the bus and an old woman got on the bus.

33:04

Holly: And if she'd have to get this certain time bus back to be back in time.

33:08

Harley: And if so much as a minute was off, everything's thrown off.

33:12

Holly: She would have had to run full pelt through the marsh to get there. And like, there was no evidence. So, everything was wiped down. There were no fingerprints there.

33:22

Harley: But they also tried to say there are no footprints because obviously, it's proof that something was wiped down. But the argument on the other side was the clear signs that the river had risen and then dropped again. So naturally, that's going to wash away evidence. So, it's all well and good that you say she's wiped away her footprints, but there are no footprints there because of the river, not because somebody's wiped it away. It doesn't mean that. So, the other thing is, was he murdered? Because he could have very easily–so he's fallen from the top of like a watchtower, basically. So, he could have slipped and fallen, he could have been pushed or that kind of stuff. So, this is a big thing is one who did it. And two, did someone do it?

33:59

Holly: Yeah. So the only piece of evidence that they had was this is red fibers that they found on Chase’s body. Now we know that Tate had a red beanie that he wore all the time. So, for a good portion of the book, it's like Oh, my God did Tate do it?

34:16

Harley: And it’s kind of there's a period of time in the book too where I was like, it makes a lot of sense that like Jumpin’ and Tate would have banded together to help her because they saw that she got beaten around by him as well. And were protective of her throughout it and all that kind of stuff. But would have had to like that would have had to be an absolute vow of secrecy because neither one of them would have, especially Jumpin’, would not have survived that accusation. So there's a whole layer of like, was it murder and if it was murder, who did it and I will admit it I thought for most of the book that it was Jumpin’ and Tate.

34:45

Holly: Same, same. So, the only other little piece of sort of circumstantial evidence that appears is that Chase every day wore a shell around his neck on a leather cord that Kya had given him now when he found his body. This shell was gone, this necklace was gone. And it wasn't found, no one found it.

35:07

Harley: And that was more important because one of the things that they discovered with the red fibers is that they could have gotten on him at multiple stages. So, there's no proof that that came from somebody murdering him.

35:15

Holly: Yep. But the only significance of this necklace was that it came from Kya. And she would be the only one that would take it.

35:23

Harley: Or if somebody did take it, it would be connected to her.

35:27

Holly: So, Chase’s mother was the one that put that connection together about the necklace, and Kya. So obviously his affair with the marsh girl was public knowledge. Everyone seemed to know that he was fooling around with this marsh girl.

35:41

Harley: Yeah, so it seemed like a thing in town where it was like, Hey, you know, boys will be boys.

35:45

Holly: Yeah. And nobody seemed to give a shit. I wonder what Pearl thought about it, though.

35:50

Harley: Yeah. So, there's those kinds of very complicated layers and that othering. And so I think I mentioned at the start earlier on, the part of the reason why Kya gets ultimately acquitted for the murder is because her lawyer does go, At what point are you making it like this so much proof that this could not have been her beyond a reasonable doubt, which is, of course, you need to find somebody guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, there is so much reasonable doubt here, that for you to find her guilty, you have to recognize that you are othering her again. So, at the end of the day, how weird she is, and how off-putting she is our responsibility as a town for not taking care of one of our own and for othering her instead? And how much do we have to accept that off-puttingness or that weirdness or that otherness is our fault, and we can't once again, punish her for something that is not her fault? And that really resonates with people. And so, she's found not guilty and a lot of characters, like Tate's father comes around and goes, like, I've always known that you've had this relationship with her, but I don't know that I fully recognized what it was. And I support you guys.

36:58

Holly: And so once she's kind of accepted, I guess she's found not guilty. And she's kind of accepted by society, but she's Fuck this shit, and goes back.

37:07

Harley: But I think changes her approach, like in terms of she renovates the, so she decides that she belongs in her marsh. But she renovates her house, and she gets electricity, and she makes it more comfortable and all this kind of stuff. And so Jodie comes back into the picture. And she builds a relationship with him. So, there is healing that takes place. She doesn't necessarily leave the marsh. But, I think I said something about like, not everything has to be a hero's journey at the start of this, but it’s kind of is that hero's journey of, they return to the place where they start, but they're not the same person who started.

37:40

Holly: Yeah, we can also thank Tate for a big portion of this, because he pushes her to publish these books. And then once she does, she gets her payment for them. She is able to go down to the, I don't know, offices of the whatever, and ask them Who owns this land? And like, is it in my family? Can I have it? Can I renovate this place? Or are you going to take it off me? Because they are trying to buy up land around to develop it.

38:09

Harley: So it’s a thing of her, like she gets accepted to a point by the town. But also, learns to work within the constructs of the rules of society to a certain degree. So rather than just disappearing into this marsh, and all that kind of stuff, she finds out she's going to lose it to developers, and actually goes into town and goes, Do I have any legal rights to prevent this? And they're like, Well, there are back taxes owed, but if you pay there's enough proof here that it belongs in your family that goes nuts. And she has the money.

38:36

Holly: So, she does. So, she's kind of like, sort of semi-joined society, hasn't necessarily joined it but he's learned to work with it. After she's found not guilty, her and Tate rekindle their relationship, and they happily live in the marsh exploring and painting and collecting samples and just having a happy little uhhh. Having an aneurysm.

39:04

Harley: It’s real fun watching her struggle guys. They live happily ever after.

39:09

Holly: That's the one I wanted. They live happily ever after until they are old and crusty.

39:15

Harley: And then she does eventually pass away.

39:18

Holly: So, she passes away and then Tate makes a discovery.

39:22

Harley: Yeah, so they're clearing out the house and I think they move like a refrigerator that's like one of those big old ’50s fridges that do not move or something like that. Clearly, this thing has not moved forever.

39:33

Holly: I mean in the movie, I'm pretty sure it is on the bookshelf, but yeah, sorry. Carry on.

39:38

Harley: In the book it like thoroughly hidden he finds a like, I guess a cavity in the floor or whatever. And that’s been missed in all the searches and all that kind of stuff. And he finds the necklace that Chase wore.

39:48

Holly: So, after all this, she fucking done it. She done it. I wasn't expecting it.

39:56

Harley: I feel it kind of took away from not having the answer. I feel like we didn't need to know. I think that was a more powerful ending.

40:04

Holly: I think it would have been a more powerful ending. Yeah, if we just straight up didn't know

40:09

Harley: Because the reality is who done it, or was it an accident or things like that didn't matter? Because it was not a story about the truth.

40:15

Holly: No, it was a story about the other.

40:17

Harley: And how people perceive reality, I guess, how they perceive other people and how they perceive themselves and the rules of society and whether or not you fit them and all that kind of stuff.

40:28

Holly: And I think it made Kya seem quite manipulative.

40:33

Harley: And I get that it was meant as like she always understood more than people gave her credit for. But I do feel like it took away from like, we already got that. Yeah, we already got that memo. So yeah, I'm not really sure why we needed that ending. In fact, I don't think we did need that ending.

40:50

Holly: Yeah, I would have been very happy just being like, was it Jumpin’ and Tate? Did Chase just off himself? Because that also was a possibility.

40:57

Harley: Yeah. Or did he genuinely just slip? Like sometimes accidents happen and they are convenient accidents for other people. And it's like, I mean, that's such a real, there's such a level of like, it's too poetic for me to say it felt like a real story. And it's too ... There's a little bit of that kind of fairytale quality to it. But there was a sort of grittiness to it that felt real and leaving that unfinished would have been a really lovely kind of addition to that realness, that grittiness or that reality of it. I have to say, I really enjoyed the book. I think it was beautifully, poetically done. I wasn't sure I was going to enjoy the book. I will say when I first started reading it, I was like, Oh, this feels like it's gonna be one of those pretentious, people read it to feel like, like, I'm so literary.

41:45

Holly: But then it wasn’t. It was less pretentious. It was a more legitimate love of wild.

41:51

Harley: Yeah. And that's it. It's like at the start with no context. I was like, Oh, fuck me. What have I signed up for?

41:55

Holly: Because the language is very pretentious. But it's only in relation to descriptions of the marsh. And it very quickly, it just works. It works very well. The descriptions are just so eloquent and beautiful.

42:07

Harley: Yeah, so it very much has that kind of poetic language of literature. But I don't think leans too hard into the language over plot. The plot is very clearly well-developed. I think she's a very good writer. Well, obviously, like all writing, there are things that you can nitpick and stuff. I mean, the ending is a great example. I don't like it. I would have removed it. But I don't think that that takes away from her skill and ability.

42:29

Holly: Yeah.

42:30

Harley: Who’s your favorite character?

42:31

Holly: Probably Mabel. Yeah, probably Mabel.

42:36

Harley: You were very upset with the diminishing of her in the movie.

42:40

Holly: They really joined a few different characters together to create Mabel in the movie, which was a bit disappointing. I think they also made her more palatable for the screen because in the book, she's a very overweight woman. And she's just very much the matriarchy of this family. Like she is the head of this.

42:59

Harley: I will say I think that they did a brilliant job. Like the actors who played Jumpin’ and Mabel, but neither of them visually…

43:06

Holly: they weren't true to the story.

43:10

Harley: And I don't just mean visually, in terms of the like, tall, and skinny, short and fat or whatever. I also mean, kind of, I don't know, there's like a visual element of how you portray yourself as a person and the kind of character you are and all that kind of thing. I don't know, I just there was something that was just, I guess it's the same thing with like, I didn't like the visuals of Kya, because that way that she would melt into the forest is very much, or melt into the swamp is very much her character, even though it's a visual thing if that makes sense. And it's a little bit harder to put my finger on with like, I think a great example is the fact that I think Mabel is that stereotype of that woman who is generous in a way that kind of feels physical with the like. There are some people who would just overweight and it's just because they're overweight. And there are some people that are overweight, in way that reads as gluttonous whether or not that's true or fair, or any of that kind of stuff is a different conversation. But there are also people where it is like that never trust a skinny cook. Very generous in this kind of way that is, I'm physically generous and then I'm emotionally generous. And then, I'm like, she's this size because she's so full of love. And that's generosity. Yeah, that even if they didn't necessarily want to go for somebody who was obese overweight, I don't know that they necessarily hit that visual goal of somebody who is so generous that they're literally generous with their weight as much as they are generous with their person. And that was the feeling that I got from Mabel in the book. And I don't know if that sounds completely insane.

44:46

Holly: No, I understand what you're saying. I think they've taken some of the characters and they've just polished them a bit too much.

44:52

Harley: Yeah, they kind of polished the character out of them.

44:55

Holly: Yeah. I already felt that. Some of the characters in the book were a little lacking in development. And the movie kind of like further eroded some of that. Yeah, I definitely think, usually the book is better than any movie adaptation. But in this instance, it's a lot better. Like, I wouldn't even bother seeing the movie, I would just read the book.

45:18

Harley: I feel like it's one of those. It'd be really interesting to talk to somebody who saw the movie and then read the book. Because I feel like if you hadn't read the book, then the movie really would hit the spot. But having read the book was like, yeah, you've missed the target altogether. It was interesting. Some of the like, visual stuff that I was like, felt different in my head. Like it felt much more open in the movie than it did in the marsh.

45:44

Holly: Yeah, I read it the other way around. I thought the marsh would be a bit more closed.

45:52

Harley: No, this is what I'm saying is like the marsh seems like this big open space. And it makes sense. Like, if you think about it, that's just me making shit up in my head. It's got nothing to do with how it was written. It's got nothing to do with how it was shot. That's not an incorrect thing. It was just really interesting that it was like there was this kind of darker looming quality in my head. And the reality of the marsh where they shot it is that it was big, wide-open space. If you reread the book, you're like, Yeah, no, that's not incorrect. It just isn't how I imagined it.

46:20

Holly: That's because we haven't grown up in a country that has like these marsh.

46:24

Harley: You say bushland, I got you. You say small country town with an avenue of honor. I'm like, which one? I know the exact town.

46:31

Holly: Yes, I kind of envisioned the marshland as being bushland but on water. 

46:36

Harley: I think that's actually probably not an inaccurate way of I guess I kind of saw Florida, so I think actually said swamp earlier, but like, almost like Florida swamp the way you see it in movies. But it's not like that. And I think I got that because it's kind of that like in my head that American version of our river. And I spent a lot of time, more time than you apparently, camping, but a lot like time on rivers and time in the bush and all that kind of stuff that that to me is a real like natural default. So, it's not surprising that I went there, given that yeah, like in my head. I said, it's that Florida swamp, as shown on TV and movies. Because I can't say I've spent any time in a Florida swamp.

47:18

Holly: No. So we can probably just chalk this one up to being like ignorant Aussies. And that's fine. That's fair. We don’t have that life experience.

47:25

Harley: But I think we also don't necessarily have, I mean, we do have marshes and things like that, but we don't necessarily have, I don't know because I don't even want to say that because I mean I've seen like that coastal kind of where the mouth of a river is and you know, that kind of wide open swamp land and all that kind of thing, but not swampland, a marshland. Words matter. Yeah, I guess obviously, given how I’m misspeaking, conflate marsh and swamp in my head. And I think I might have gone swamp instead of marsh. And so that was a bit of an eye-opening thing for me watching the movie was like, Oh, hang on, I visualized this wrong. And again, not in it was described the wrong kind of way just to like, okay, where my brain defaulted was not accurate.

48:07

Holly: I'm gonna ask another really stupid question. Maybe not as stupid as is a crawdad a bird?

48:11

Harley: I didn't know the answer.

48:12

Holly: I think you did, though.

48:15

Harley: You know, I just didn't know that I knew the answer.

48:17

Holly: What's the difference between swamp land and marshland to Google? Wow, you're so smart.

48:27

Harley: The difference between the two is that swamps usually have deeper standing water and are wet for longer periods of the year, according to national park service, marshes have rich, waterlogged soils that support plant life. Okay, so the presence of water is the main difference between marshes and swamps the kind of plant life present in the areas of the primary difference between them. Swamps are predominantly forested. While marshes have few if any trees but are home to grasses and herbaceous plants, including annuals, perennials, and biennials. Swamps are often classified by the type of tree growing there, I don't care about that.  Marshes have rich, waterlogged soils that support plant life. Plants that grow marshes bind to the muddy soil, which slows the flow of the water. There are three kinds of marshes: tidal freshwater, tidal saltwater, and inland freshwater. So, it seems like swamps are more like trees and stuff. I mean, they do describe both, so maybe that's the thing that threw me because I don't necessarily if you asked me to describe marsh, I'd kind of be like, I don't know, soggy soil. Am I wrong? Not according to reconnectwithnature.org But yeah, I guess that kind of like wet bushland just reads to me is swamped. And the way that she describes the nature there is like obviously, it's wet bush because it's like it's wet enough to have water and boats and like beaches and things like that. But it's like she talks about her disappearing into the trees and so there's bush in that sense. So, I think that's where my head just kind of conflated a couple of things based on my experience because my experience is only being Australian.

49:59

Holly: Yeah. So, maybe she focused too much on the smaller details of the tiny things. And we didn't get a full big picture. Or maybe we're just ignorant Australians or maybe it's a combination of both.

50:10

Harley: Yeah, but I think it's, I mean, also none of the above where it's just like, sometimes you do - and I find this sometimes with like books and stories and things like that is - sometimes you just lock on to something being a certain way, for no particular reason. And convincing you that it's otherwise it's very hard, even when there's like hard evidence in the book, but you are wrong. You’re like, I'm sorry, I choose not to process that.

50:33

Holly: Yeah. It's like when they cost a certain actor, and you're like, Nope, wrong. Can't watch this.

50:40

Harley: Even like, they described someone down the track where they go all like, actually they're blonde, and you're like, nope, 0% imagining that, nope.

50:48

Holly: I need a whole scene where they have a breakdown, and they dye their hair blonde in the middle of the night while they're crying. And then I'll accept they’re a blonde.

50:55

Harley: And I'm still going to imagine them dark and brooding.

50:58

Holly: So, who was your favorite character?

51:00

Harley: I think Tate. I do think like Jumpin’ and Mabel, I loved their relationship with Kya. But I think just as a standalone character, I think Tate because I think that he really showed kind of he was very human and flawed in that kind of way. But he was incredibly kind. He was very kind. And I don't think that we often see kind of those empathetic kind men in that kind of way, where it was just that innate, understanding that Kya was inherently a wild animal and needed to be treated as such. But I did like that he wasn't then just described as like, the perfectest person to ever be perfect, that gets irritating too so having him be flawed and having him fuck up and having him be part of the problem and like, essentially pour salt on her wounds at one point in the book, and then having to redeem himself from that and actually makes the effort to redeem himself.

51:52

Holly: I do like his redemption arc. I did like that.

51:54

Harley: I think was really, really powerful. And I mean, it did add to the thing of like, did he kill Chase to help protect her in part because he was her protector, but also in part to redeem himself for her? So, I think he was my favorite.

52:08

Holly: Any other thoughts?

52:10

Harley: No, I think I think we've covered it. I think this is a hard one to recommend to people because I would call it almost like literature lite.

52:18

Holly: I would agree it is literature-lite.

52:20

Harley: So, if you want just like a trashy read, it's not necessarily the go-to. Like it's not on par with something like Colleen Hoover's level of airport fiction, but it's like airport literature. So, it's like, I want literature, but I'm not really ready to be reading that intense literature. But I want that poetic language. And I want that beautiful story and that deeper meaning throughout the book. She does nail all of those things in a way that is more accessible than like, true, true, true literature but still kind of is on the edge of that. And hopefully, we are not helping finance a murderer, an accomplice. Yeah, okay, well, yeah, hopefully, we're not supporting somebody who is like, Yeah, my son-in-law shot someone but he was a poacher. So, like, kind of deserved it. Not saying that I agree with poaching because I definitely don’t, but I also don't agree with murder, so everyone's wrong.

53:17

Holly: Let's just not kill anybody. Animal or human. Just a thought.

53:22

Harley: Yeah. Anyway, I questioned the author's morality, but her ability to tell the story is pretty damn fine.

53:30

Holly: So, I guess, let us know if you guys thought it was very obvious that Kya was the murderer. So, if you think Kya being the murderer is a confession on Delia Owens’ part or any other wild thoughts?

53:48

Harley: And let us know if you've read Where the Crawdads Sing, or you've seen Where the Crawdads Sing. Let us know what you think. If you saw the movie and then read the book, let us know what you think especially in the meantime, we will love you and leave you for this week. And we will see you next week.

54:02

Holly: Yes, as per usual, all the links are all the things in the... I'm not good at outros.

54:07

Harley: I'm making her leave that in. As always, we will have links to everything we discussed in our show notes. You can also find all the things on bimbobookclub.com. We are on basically all the social media platforms you can find us either in our links or by looking up Bimbo Book Club basically everywhere.

54:29

Holly: Basically everywhere.

54:30

Harley: Bimbos out.